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i'm confused about the indication of vincent berger - born in 1883 on further czechoslovakian ground - to have bred dr. lande with only 18 years...?
b.dickerson at least mentions j.-b. chauvry from bordeaux having been involved in breeding of the plant, in collaboration with a certain berger. are there documents showing that austrian breeder v. berger is the same person?
dedication to the mayor of bordeaux at the time makes sense for french not austrian breeding.
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#1 of 3 posted
16 OCT 08 by
 jedmar
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Dickerson is possibly quoting Jäger, who lists Chauvry in brackets, which (usually) means for him that Chauvry commercialized the rose. The Berger nursery in Czechoslovakia passed 1926 from Adolph to Vincenz Berger, so the breeder could have been the father. The only other rose bred by a Berger in France is from 1852, so that does not fit either. We need more contemporary accounts on this.
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#2 of 3 posted
5 days ago by
odinthor
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Ketten (catalog 1902, p. 135) credits Berger, as does/do Soupert & Notting (1905, p. 68). Even better, Rosen-Zeitung of 1901, (p. 15), concerning which I will try to attach an image.
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#3 of 3 posted
4 days ago by
jedmar
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The breeder question was actually resolved a long time ago with the quote from Journal des Roses.. We have added the two additional references, thank you!
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'Cornélie' seems to have been a bright pink Noisette, while 'Belle Vichysoise' of commerce today is definitely not bright pink. Roseraie Ducher offers both 'Cornélie' (bright pink) and 'Belle Vichysoise' (pale pink and white):
http://roseraie-ducher.com/fr/rosiers-buissons/44-rosier-buisson-cornelie.html?
http://roseraie-ducher.com/fr/rosiers-grimpants/228-rosier-grimpant-belle-vichyssoise.html?
I can only assume that the comparison that was made when it was determined these roses were the same involved a mis-labeled plant. They look nothing alike. Accordingly, the 1899 and 1906 editions of Nomenclature de tous les noms... give them separate entries, histories and descriptions: 'Cornélie' is rose vif, while 'Belle Vichysoise' is blanc rosé.
It does seem that HMF ought to look at the synonymity of these two roses with more skepticism; I think they deserve separate records.
Virginia
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#1 of 3 posted
7 days ago by
odinthor
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I agree. The early descriptions of 'Cornélie', which include not only vivid pink but even red ("rouge") once, are at odds with the blush 'Belle Vichysoise'.
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#2 of 3 posted
7 days ago by
jedmar
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The synonymity is based on the article in Journal des Roses of June 1903, which is taken up by later authors. BV seems to have been a found rose, re-introduced in 1895. The comparison with Cornélie was apparently made 1901 in L'Haÿ. It is possible that Cornélie there was mislabeled, as Gravereaux seems to have planted all roses he could lay his hands on with no questions asked.
Counter-arguments: 'Cornélie' is no longer on sale at Ducher or any other nursery; none of the photos posted seem to show it. Does Tête d'or really have it?
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I wonder if 'Cornélie' was already extinct before it was proposed as a synonym for 'Belle Vichysoise'. Which raises the question of which rose in Gravereaux's collection was found to be "identical with" BV.
From comments made by observant rosarians like George Paul, I think BV had more of the appearance of a Moschata hybrid than your usual Noisette, whatever that means. Perhaps it's one of the several Hybrid Moschata varieties named 'Belle Henriette'? Or another early Hybrid Moschata?
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From the nature of the plant, the many descriptions (here and elsewhere) invoking Wichuraiana, and the number of references cataloguing it or explicitly stating it to be a Wichuraiana hybrid, I think the "Sport of 'Red Letter Day'" parentage should be abandoned. For just two examples: Kordes 1935 has it as a Wichuraiana; 1931 Gardeners Chronicle mentions it as "a valuable and striking Hybrid Wichuraiana" (p. 38). Chaplin's indeed was producing Ramblers and Large-Flowered Climber hybrids in this era.
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#1 of 1 posted
6 days ago by
jedmar
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There are many references stating it is a sport of 'Red Letter Day', too. We have to keep both until disproven, and added a note to that respect.
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John H. Van Barneveld, President, California Roses, Inc., La Puente, California. See, for instance, Los Angeles Times, June 20, 1940, p. 13.
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#1 of 1 posted
6 days ago by
jedmar
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