HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Eric Timewell
most recent 15 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 AUG 07 by george graham
The Rose Captain Phillip Green sold by Guillot in France is Bon silene
Reply #1 of 15 posted 25 AUG 07 by HMF Admin
We have 'Bon Silene' listed as a different rose. Can you provide a reference indicating these rose are the same ?
Reply #2 of 15 posted 28 AUG 07 by jedmar
It should not be the same rose; George Graham means that the rose Guillot is selling, is actually 'Bon Silène' not 'Captain Philip Green'. There are unfortunately many such impostors in commerce.
Reply #3 of 15 posted 28 AUG 07 by HMF Admin
Thank you for the clarification.
Reply #4 of 15 posted 1 JUL 08 by Eric Timewell
Two of your photos of Bon Silène and two of Captain Philip Green seem to be of an identical plant. All four photos have been contributed by Ami Roses.
It seems to me unclear that any of your photos of Captain Philip Green is correct. Paul Nabonnand, quoted on the site, lists it as cream, as do you. Yet all your photos are of a very pink rose. Another site has "long bud opening to cream with carmine," which does not accurately describe any of your photos.
You quote a source of 1910 saying Captain Philip Green is "cream colour, in the way of Marie van Houtte". Since Marie van Houtte was the seed parent of Captain Philip Green, the similarity may be more genetic than casual. Your own photo ID 42196 of Marie van Houtte shows the exact effect: overall cream-straw colour with darker-than-pink staining of the outer petals.
Reply #5 of 15 posted 4 FEB 12 by Darrell
I currently have a young Capt. Philip Green from Vintage Gardens--still in a container. How tall and wide does this rose grow in the ground? (I live about 30 miles northeast of San Francisco, very Mediterranean climate.)
Reply #6 of 15 posted 13 DEC 14 by AmiRoses
No, all four photos are not the same plant.
Bon Silène is more carmine pink and often shows a white stripe.
Captain Ph. Green is more of a cream base and never has this white stripe.
The Buds are really cream with touches of carmine.
Reply #7 of 15 posted 13 DEC 14 by Patricia Routley
The photos from Laikanl and Mulino san Genesio both show white stripes and therefore are likely to be 'Bon Silene'. If it is OK with them, I'll move the photos shortly.
Reply #8 of 15 posted 27 JUL 19 by scvirginia
I'm late to this party, but none of these photos fits the description of a cream or light yellow rose with a light yellow, carmine-shaded bud. I agree that they do look like 'Bon Silène'.

Reply #9 of 15 posted 28 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
I guess five years is more than adequate time for Laikanl and Mulino san Genesio to reply. I have reassigned their photos at least, to Bon Silene.
Reply #10 of 15 posted 28 JUL 19 by jedmar
The rose in L'Hay is also incorrectly labeled, but it is not pink enough to be 'Bon Silène'
Reply #11 of 15 posted 28 JUL 19 by scvirginia
I agree that those photos don't look like 'Bon Silène'. It looks more like a Pernetiana to me. Would it be a good idea to have a separate record for "Captain Philip Green- in commerce"?

Reply #12 of 15 posted 15 MAY by odinthor
Reply #13 of 15 posted 15 MAY by scvirginia
I have created an "in commerce as" record, and moved the photos.

There are quite a few gardens claiming to have 'Captain Philip Green', and I would love to know if any of them have the original rose, or are they all 'Bon Silène', or this pretty HT-ish imposter? To me, the coloring of the latter resembles 'Shot Silk'...
Reply #14 of 15 posted 15 MAY by odinthor
Mine appears to be 'Bon Silène' (which I don't regret having!).

Do we know when/where/who started the distribution of 'Bon Silène' as 'Captain Philip Green'? (And same question for the origin of the HT/Pernetiana imposter.) If anyone has a full run of the Combined Rose List, one could at least see when 'Captain Philip Green' started being mentioned as available (and by whom) . . . unless it was already available when that publication started to appear.
Reply #15 of 15 posted 15 MAY by jedmar
'Captain Philip Green' is listed in the Guillot catalogue of 2000, but not in 1997.
most recent 3 NOV SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
I have a superb rose that came to me as an Alister Clark rose - 'Argosy'. But the original 'Argosy' was fuchsia pink or salmon flushed pink - and my rose is a purpling crimson with nothing salmon about it at all. I am very grateful to the man who put it on multiflora rootstock and sent it to me as it is truly beautiful. It came originally from Rustons. Photos are in the file.
Reply #1 of 9 posted 16 JAN 15 by Jane Z
Patricia, your *Argosy* looks remarkably similar in several respects to "Florence Hinds" of Rookwood - leaflet shape & colour, bloom structure, bud shape & silver tones of sepals (at bud stage) etc etc ...
Reply #2 of 9 posted 17 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
Thank you Jane. I feel that my rose which came as 'Argosy' has much longer stems than "Florence Hinds". And I see more red tones in "florence Hinds" than my very deep pink, purpling rose. Now, if there was a red 'Dame Edith Helen'..........
Reply #3 of 9 posted 17 JAN 15 by Jane Z
ah, Florence's weakness, her rather short stems ... otherwise just based on the images they have many similarities it seems
Reply #4 of 9 posted 17 JAN 15 by Eric Timewell
This rose in the photos look very much like the so-called 'Mrs RC Bell' I was sold by Mistydowns last year (see photos for Mrs RC Bell). Very double, short stem, crimson turning blue, tea scent not strong but durable.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 18 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
The receptacle seems the same shape in both roses.
The pedicel of to so-called 'Mrs. R. C. Bell' is green, whereas "came as Argosy" is reddish.
I would say "came as Argosy" has long stems, whereas you say the so-called 'Mrs. R. C. Bell' has short stems.
I have added more photos of my rose. Would you mind having a look please.
I believe Cree and Bruce Treloar both know or grow the same rose as I grow.
It has absolutely no salmon colouring at all, so it is certainly not the original 'Argosy'. If we can't solve it, I might have to move my photos out into a file of its own.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 18 JAN 15 by Eric Timewell
Photo of a leaflet of the pseudo-Mrs RC Bell supplied. Looks exactly like Patricia's pseudo-Argosy. The pedicel is exactly two inches long, whether that counts as short or long I don't know. It has not a skerrick of red on it. The present bloom is very double and very symmetrical, just under three inches across. "Purpling crimson" is a good description.
Reply #7 of 9 posted 3 NOV by Patricia Routley
Eric’s 15 Mar 2014 photo of ‘Lubra’s puffy petals is reminding me very much of the rose which came to me as ‘Argosy’.
Due to the different colour of my rose and ‘Argosy’ my rose is certainly not ‘Argosy’. I feel that it may be ‘Lubra’ and intend to move my photos out of ‘Argosy’ and into ‘Lubra’. Any comment before I do?
(Interestingly both ‘Argosy’ (Clark) and ‘Lubra’ (Fitzhardinge) were both bred in 1938.)
Reply #8 of 9 posted 3 NOV by HubertG
Patricia, I did grow 'Argosy' for a brief time several years back, but it never made it out of its pot and eventually died. I bought it from a Sydney grower (I can't remember the name right now) but he assured me that it was correct and from a "named specimen" although I never pressed him for details at the time. Some observations that I remember are; - that it was exactly like your photos from several years back which are the deep pink colour with buds and leaves identical to yours. I never saw mine approaching red. I remembered the allusion to 'Lorraine Lee' when I bought it but could see no obvious physical similarity to that rose. However one thing I observed was that it never set any hips despite having normal looking stigma and despite my persistent attempts at pollinating it, and I decided it might have been a triploid and possibly was a Tea x HT after all, or something similar. It's description as fuchsia in the early references puzzled me a little because it was not quite what I would have called fuchsia, but of course colours are objective especially over time.

So, at the time I grew it I did have some doubts as to whether it was correct, but in time I came to the conclusion that it probably was truly 'Argosy' mainly because it seemed to be such random a rose to be reintroduced without any good reason, and also because of its presumed odd ploidy matching something Clark might have experimented with.

Patricia, I guess what I'm saying is that the rose I grew as 'Argosy' appears to be exactly the same as yours, and that I wouldn't discount it as something else at this point. Does yours ever set hips?
Reply #9 of 9 posted 3 NOV by Patricia Routley
I don’t think it does set hips as a rule. But there is one photo of a couple of hips photographed on 6 May 2018. I hope to remember to put a tag on the bush not to deadhead the current blooms. Coincidentally I planted ‘Lorraine Lee’ only a few metres from the rose in question and they are chalk and cheese.
Thank you for your thoughts HubertG. I will leave things as they are for the moment.
most recent 25 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 8 MAY 13 by Rosenfee
Devoted the wife of Francisco Franco (1892 -1975), the spanish dictator. LG Rosenfee
Reply #1 of 3 posted 8 MAY 13 by Eric Timewell
Good to have the information recorded, but I'm always glad to be reminded that Pedro Dot, who lived through that time in which thousands of his compatriots were murdered, never sank so low as to name a rose after Franco.
The dates of María del Carmen Polo y Martínez-Valdés herself were 1900–1988.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 25 SEP by Charles Quest-Ritson
You need to be a little more careful with your political statements. Some users of HMF, past and present, would have supported Catholic Franco against the Communists and Republicans.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 25 SEP by HMF Admin
Agreed, especially in this day and age, HelpMeFind respectfully requests our guests refrain from political references, past and present please. HMF is about the joy of roses...
most recent 17 OCT 22 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 16 OCT 22 by Eric Timewell
Mrs Norman Watson, contrary to claims, has a sweet mild scent, well worth sniffing. Once flowering in October only, alas.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 16 OCT 22 by HubertG
Does it throw out a few flowers in autumn? Early newspaper articles on the Autumn Rose Shows report it was exhibited then, and there's even a photo of an autumn bloom in the file here.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 16 OCT 22 by Eric Timewell
Reply soon; my spies are out. May I say irrelevantly that it has many beautiful blooms, formally symmetrical and facing up. They are at sniffing height. I never see it without deeply admiring it.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 16 OCT 22 by HubertG
Thank you. Yes, it's very beautiful.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 16 OCT 22 by Eric Timewell
The spies say it has an "autumn flush", just as you said.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 17 OCT 22 by HubertG
Thank you, that's good to know!
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