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Hi Arturo, off the top of your head, can you give some of the sequence of bloom of the different varieties, focusing on the David Austins and Miss All-American Beauty and other hybrid teas?? I am trying to do some research on roses growing under low heat accumulation. The ones that leaf out early I'm interested in too. Thanks!!! Nate
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Hi Nate, the first thing that crosses my mind is that our growing seasons are becoming visibly shifted ahead of our astronomical seasons. That means spring wake up is 6 weeks later than before and fall growth is delayed too. I still have last blooms on 'The Poets Wife' after a couple of days of -4ºC hard frost. So does 'Rabelais' or 'Goldmarie' two floribundas. In consequence the initial bloom of all roses cluster together at the same time but after New year. Before it started mid November. Next spring I'll try to keep detailed records of what seems to bloom or leaf out first and when. MAAB is a midsummer bloomer here. Not a spring bloomer. Although it does have later flushes, the peak is in mid-February. I'm getting to understand better the blooming pattern of my DAs. The first bloom can be scarce, they tend to pick up with the second flush in mid february. So there's something of heat build up there too. Then third and fourth are less than #2 but still more than #1. I have noticed this pattern in 'Gertrude Jekyll', but not in 'Sceptere'd Isle' being a not so good rebloomer here. Since I have doubts about their position in the garden beds and how well fed and watered they were this past season, I need to check each of them again. Arturo
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Thanks Arturo....at my parent's garden in San Diego Rabelais hasn't been pruned in years and has a springlike flush in early winter, actually the peak bloom of the year for the plant. Rats on MAAB, I really like that one but I need the early bloomers for my waterless project where I'm trying to get roses to 'flip seasons' and complete their seasonal cycle in winter. Nate
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I had to look closely your location and growing conditions. Somehow I thought you were placed in the northwest, but if understand correctly you are east of LA. If so I'll give you a recent discovery of how I grow my roses in a natural summer drought region. This fall, drought extended until around June 1, and only this present week has the soil become thoroughly moist!. We have a greenhouse vegetable commercial operation; very small size.The lining has to be renovated about every 4 years so we have left over lining.I use it to prepare my rose beds. I dig a hole about a spade length ( 30 cm.) and place a raw wool layer, then add dry oak leaves and well rotted compost. Place the root ball in the center and surround it with my very sandy soil mixed in halves with barn sweepings. Then continue the top the same. I wrap raw wool like a scarf around the crown all the way up to the bud union and repeat the compost+leaf mixture on top of it.Finally I add, the poorest soil I can find covering everything up. This keeps my weed population low. The plastic lining role is to AVOID DRAINAGE. Exactly the opposite of what water wealthy people preach across the world. When one has scarce supply of water you have to try to make the best of whatever water you get. Letting it drain into lower acquifers isn't the trick. I managed to reduce my drip watering to no more than once in a week. Arturo
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Hunh. So anaerobic conditions don't develop during the cooler rainier periods?? I actually did the same thing larger scale....the soil on the waterless garden site is wretched rocky sand that doesnt retain water. We brought in 45 cm of heavier clay containing soil and amended heavily with compost. During the rainy season water accumulates at the boundary between the two types and acts as a reservoir. The two top performers have been Old Blush and Madame Alfred Carriere, giving a huge performance during the winter. Evelyn isn't quite as winter-active but gives a performance a bit later than the other two.
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The lining is relatively water-proof but not air proof. Greenhouse lining breathes somewhat. So with the depth I'm considering ( fairly shallow...not 45 cm deep) there's no danger of anaerobic condition developing during the rainy season. Second roses like almost all plants need the first 30 cm below the surface. It doesn't make sense to dig further. Anchor roots that go deeper are solely to keep the roses anchored, not for much else. So in a water tight condition, having natural "wretched" rocky sandy soil, I would simply sieve that soil and work on improving it with OM without adding any clay. The sand will provide aereation ( so do small pebbles and grit) which really boosts root growth. I think that your questions require contending with all the "accepted" ways of growing roses and questioning one by one each of the guidelines. If you go against the mainstream, understanding your peculiar constraints, you will discover how many more roses you can grow in your "wretched" place. Its re-setting your mind frame. Drought has come to stay there, as climate changing patterns become self evident worldwide. In desert areas pèople for centuries have built reservoirs of winter rain-water for use during the growing season. Roses do well in deserts. So there's no reason to give up. Arturo
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Oh I see. I didn't add any clay, but the soil brought in did have some clay in it. My understanding is that because of the texture difference between the two soil types the water tends to accumulate at the boundary. That is, the volume of water remaining in the soil after it rains or is watered is about 15 to 25% for sandy soils, 35 to 45% for loam soils, and 45 to 55% for clay soils. So there is water retained above the boundary.
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Nate,I see no harm if water is retained for a while in a boundary zone. If you were to have copious rains and run-off water accumulates on the surface ( until it either seeps under or evaporates) the over the top puddle doesn't drown or harm your bush. It is just a temporary situation. Roses can handle that unscathed. Thus if the same happens 45 cm underneath I see no reason of concern. The bush will pump upwards the necessary water for its evapotranspiration needs and remainder will seep further down through cracks or micro channels. The point that I'm making is that actually building an artificial "reservoir" in the boundary is smart on your part! As I mentioned before, roses also need air around their active growing zone( the minute feeder hair like roots). This zone is concentrated mostly in the upper 20 cm, so if further down some roots discover that there's hidden water. Hurray! Arturo
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Hurray!!! Thanks Arturo. Nate
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Nate, Please PM whenever you wish to discuss technical aspects of your gardening challenges, I trained as an agronomist many decades ago however applied them daily, up to this day. I live in a natural drought region. If we aren't carefull our wells dry up in late summer. So in spite of farming for a living, we still have to carefully ration our water supply. So we have had to become very careful about how water is being provided. That is when I realized that I had TOO MUCH drainage and had to do exactly the opposite: Let my roses stand over a puddle of wet feet; just like when one waters houseplants with a bottom dish tray! I don't buy easily garden myths that proffusely have prevailed in the mainly untrained gardeners world. The dissadvantage for any one like you, who is contending trying to make a myth became a reality, can easily lead to considerable expense, effort ,and time and reach nowhere. The only way out of it is understanding the basics of how your unique yard operates and then adapt your projects so that everything reaches fruition. Better understanding a rose bush in your setting. What are its basic needs then see how you are going to provide for them. If you haven't got enough water to irrigate conventionally, then you have to save up your water limiting to only the water that the bush needs to evapotranspirate. No water should be wasted for underground percolation. If you do thus, your watering needs can be adjusted by building reservoirs to catch your winter rains and keep as many bushes as you stored water can provide. Kindly. Arturo
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#10 of 10 posted
25 JUN 21 by
 raingreen
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Thank you Arturo!!! Yes, will PM you if I have any questions. You're the best, Nate
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I've got three MariaCallas growing here. The colour is so vividly striking that it outstands most other roses that grow nearby. It has a wonderful but not strong fragrance here in the begining of the season. I'll check again later. Two of my bushes are already 34 years old. They survived everything. Would one call that a fussy rose? They survived the -20ºC winter unscathed with no protection. They get no supplemental water during our dry summers. No even a adequate pruning...No spraying either. The young plant which I bought three years ago did suffer from my recent very late spring freeze. So yes it may require care just initially. All in all I'm more than happy to have multiples of it amongst my almost 400 bush collection.
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Is it possible to grow this rose from seed? Is your rose grafted on briar or root-related rose?
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Unfortunately not. Any seedling from it would not be a true Clg. Crimson Glory, however it will probably have many of its traits. One of its descendants mentioned here seems to be the result of a chance cross seedling. See Lauren Elizabeth https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.74559.0. However nothings stops you from trying out any seed and discover for yourself if its worthy keeping. If you are patient then you might discover some unexpected surprises.
Arturo
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Thank you for you explanation. I knew that info, but you gave the foto of seeds, so I decided that I've missed smth.
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#2 of 4 posted
22 JUN 20 by
jedmar
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The rose is grafted. As Arturo Tarak states, it is not possible to grow any rose cultivar from seed. Each seed in any hip is a unique combination of genes. You can get single and double roses from the same hip, and different colours too!
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Thank you, this is very interesting information.
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I planted these seeds in July 2018 and just yesterday (16/6/20), after nearly two years, the first seedling popped up.
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Well done HubertG. It seems rose breeding should be commenced when one is 13 years of age. May I ask were the seeds planted in the ground, or in pots, and were they watered during the summer, or just left to themselves.
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#2 of 13 posted
18 JUN 20 by
HubertG
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Thanks :-).There were 10 seeds in that hip and I planted them in a 3½ inch (9cm) plastic pot in half perlite/half peat moss mix. I left them inside in a relatively cool unused room with natural lighting all that time and watered them well (on the kitchen sink) when the mix seemed to look a little dry on the surface. That mix seems to create no apparent mould issues. I transplanted the seedling into it's own pot the next day with a little bit of slow release rose fertiliser in the bottom half of the pot. I hope that does the trick. My problem with seedlings has been one of damping off. I had some Fongarid fungicide which was excellent for controlling that problem, but it's not available in Australia any more and now I don't know what to use. I'm just going to try to keep the base of the seedlings as dry as I can but still with moist roots. Any tips from breeders regarding how to prevent damping off would be much appreciated!
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Hello, I use a dilute captan mixture that does the trick. For a single pot about 1/4 tsp of powder per glass full of water and dowse the pot. I googled and captan is available in Australia: A brand ad names Adama, although the label doesn't specify damping off. Actually it's good in other seeds such as tree seeds as well. It works well after emergence.
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#4 of 13 posted
20 JUN 20 by
HubertG
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Arturo, thanks very much for that advice. I will look into Captan. :-)
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#5 of 13 posted
20 JUN 20 by
Plazbo
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May be too early to not be a coincidence but anecdotal evidence for me this season.
I've been using a thin layer (roughly 5mm) of zeolite on top, the only germinated seedlings to die for me this season so far have been albino's. Seems to create a bit of a barrier where the very top layer is dry/dries out quickly and no signs of mold/fungus/moss/etc that often occurred on the surface in previous years (when zeolite wasn't layered on top).
Pretty easily found at nurseries or at Bunnings (just it's in the pool cleaning section there, product called Zeo-Clor).
River sand probably would have the same effect but I use zeolite in potting mixes due to it's high CEC and to counteract the weightlessness of vermiculite which often accounts for a 1/3rd of the potting mix (many 50L pots use to easily blow over in the wind...), so it's generally always on hand here.
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#6 of 13 posted
20 JUN 20 by
HubertG
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Ah thanks, Plazbo. Yes, it makes sense that keeping the base of the young stem drier to avoid fungus should help prevent damping off. You put this over your planted seeds too, not just your transplanted seedlings?
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#7 of 13 posted
20 JUN 20 by
Plazbo
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Yes. I need to preface the following with, I take a lazy approach to things, the less I need to do the better :)
Because I'm lazy there's a good chance nothing will be replanted for many months unless a very vigorous seedling presents itself or they've started flowering and appears healthy, by the time they are replanted there's probably not a big risk in dampening off, being several cm or more tall. With that in mind all seed get sown in 60cm planters filled with a mix of compost/coir/vermiculite/zeolite/rock dust/slow release/seamungus/etc. Then on top do a very thin layer of zeolite (about 50% visibility of the mix below), line out/scatter seeds (if seed are big chunky ones firm down), then cover in zeolite. Often they get cramped but that probably just makes it easier to pick out the stronger ones.
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That you got a seedling to come up is encouraging re its true ID.
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Although I was concentrating around the damping off issue, I'm delighted to have understood the purpose of having a sterile 5mm or ( perhaps more thickness) material. Possibly my recent volcanic sand will play the same role. However the damping off complex of different fungi are still inside the soil, so if they may, will try to attack the emerging seedling. So I'm going to keep on dowsing once my seedlings with captan and place that sterile upper layer too. Thank you for pointing this out! Arturo
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#10 of 13 posted
20 JUN 20 by
HubertG
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Margaret, I have had a handful of seeds (maybe seven) from this "Dr. Grill" germinate the last year or so but they all died early on. I only posted about this seedling in particular because I'd made a note that it was from the hip that I photographed and posted. I also have another seedling from this rose (from another hip) that's a few weeks old whose pollen parent is "Agnes Smith". It seems to be doing OK so far, fingers crossed. So my "Dr. Grill ex Honeysuckle" certainly produces viable seed. It's definitely not the same rose as 'William R. Smith'/"Amelia Anderson"/"Dr. Grill (sold as)" on which I can't produce a hip despite attempts to artificially fertilise it. It just doesn't seem to be fertile at all. Whether my rose from Honeysuckle really is 'Dr. Grill', who knows? I'm still inclined to think it is. It would be great if it was.
Arturo, I read a bit about Captan and, although it comes with a few health warnings, it seems to me to be definitely worth trying.
Plazbo, I'll be experimenting with some zeolite too, thanks.
I'm rather desperate to find out the best way to keep these seedlings alive. ;-)
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I've used captan carefully and never had any health issues to deal with. I use gloves when handling and keep the mixing done in the open. I use a plastic cup for the mixture and dispose it afterwards. Always a per pot quantity. I don't spray it, only give it as a watering.
Arturo
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#12 of 13 posted
20 JUN 20 by
HubertG
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Sounds good, Arturo. Do you repeat the Captan drenching after a period of time?
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No, it's a once in a time procedure. Normally captan has about two weeks of action. By then the seedling will have grown enough to withstand the fungi trying to get inside. . Later on seedlings may show other fungal issues such as mildew. Then I change the chemical to something more adequate for a different set of air borne fungi. Damping off is soil borne and the spores are inside the soil. There are about three different genera that cause it. In my experience the captan drench gets rid of them. I'm not a fungal taxonomist or intend to be...
Arturo
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