HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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The Swiss gentle man Fellenburg as that is the correct sow spelling of his name and that of this rose was a Swiss of German extraction. This rose is a creation of his without any doubt.
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Ah, you're the same as me - don't touch-type, and sometimes forget to check what has appeared on the screen when we've finished.
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Aussie Rose Lover - you might like to look at the other comments for this rose.
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I stand by what I said earlier about Mr. Fellenburg . In German burg is never spelt with an e. It is always spelt burg which means hill or mountain Patricia. This mistake has bean around for along time and unless one has a linguistic or philogical background one doesn't appreciate the subtle nuances of any given language or its spelling. There are spellings of words which have crept into English here and in the us and Canada which though popular still make them silly or theoretically incorrect ie; The american use of dove instead of dived for the past tense of diving.
I once mentioned the spelling of Fellemburg to David Euston.He like me grew up in South Australia surrounded by people of German extraction. He accepted like me that the correct spelling for fellemburg is with the u and not eunles Herr Fellemburg was English which he certainly wasn't.
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I wonder if the rose was named after:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Emanuel_von_Fellenberg
There was a prune in the Riverland in the 1920s 'Fellemberg' according to TROVE
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There are quite a few Germanic words spelt e-r-g, Battenberg for example. Burg = Castle, Berg = Mountain.
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Aussie Rose Lover - I wonder if you wouldn't mind using the EDIT facility to correct the incorrect spellings in your postings.
There are 60 or so references to this rose dating back to 1836, all using the berg spelling. The only point of contention is that whether the name was spelt with an N or a M.
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#7 of 11 posted
1 SEP 18 by
 HubertG
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In the digitised copies available online of the German periodical Rosenzeitung there are 22 references to Fellemberg, only one to Fellenberg and none at all to either Fellenburg or Fellemburg.
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Fellen means fallen in german, so family name would be 'descended from the mountains' , Fellem is hungarian for above myself and the family name would then mean 'above me the mountains, above the mountains'
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#10 of 11 posted
1 JUL 23 by
jedmar
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The German etymology is a bit far fetched. "Fallen" in German is "gefallen". "Fell" is fur, "Fellen" is "of furs". The name is known in for a Swiss patrician family since mid 16th century. Contemporaries of the rose were e.g.
Daniel von Fellenberg (1736-1801), politician and lawyer
Philipp Emanuel von Fellemberg (1771-1844), educator and agronomist
Wilhelm Tell von Fellenberg (1798-1880), farmer and entrepreneur
The second was shortly (ca. 1798/99) ambassador to France. A Fellenberg prune is still in commerce, also called Fellemberg. There is no indication that he ever bred roses.
The spelling "Fellemberg" is a typical French misspelling of German words. Philip Emanuel is mentioned in the Revue anglo-française of 1833 as ". M. de Fellemberg a placé dans son grand établissement d'agriculture d'Hofwil , près Berne" etc. P.E.F.'s educational work was well-known in France. He was in contact with Marie Louise of Austria, the second wife of Napoléon. There are mentions of his establishment in Hofwyl near Bern from 1805 onwards
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#11 of 11 posted
2 JUL 23 by
jedmar
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Additional research: According to Fellenberg family tradition, an ancestor immigrated from Tirol in Austria to the region Aargau, which was then Austrian land. The family name was spelled "von Vellenberg". Indeed there is a castle ruin Vellenberg near Innsbruck, Tirol. The family name "de Vellinberch" related to the castle is documented since the 1160s.
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Like Professor Higgins said, we Americans haven't spoken English in years.
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Pétales de roses, the online shop of Chemins de la rose in France, say that their Francis Dubreuil is the real one and not Barcelona.
Here is the link to their Francis Dubreuil page:
http://www.petales-de-roses.com/rosiers-anciens/206-francis-dubreuil.html
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#1 of 9 posted
11 MAY 15 by
MichaelG
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true-blue,
They give the height as 100 cm and the fragrance as "legér" (light), so maybe theirs is not 'Barcelona'.
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Maybe that's the Australian "not" FD!
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#3 of 9 posted
12 MAY 15 by
Tessie
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What is the provenance of the Barcelona at The Huntington? It is said by multiple people to be extremely fragrant. One of them was a staff member (Judy something I think) who makes rose desserts from some varieties with the best fragrance for that purpose, and Huntington's Barcelona was one. But since there are such questions with the identify of Francis Dubreuil, how certain is it that The Huntington has the real Barcelona???? Did they get it from Sangerhausen? Because if so, this from the reference section presents a problem:
"Rosenlexikon
Book (1936) Page(s) 52.
Barcelona (HT) Kordes 1932; (Sensation X Templar) X L. Charlemont; deep crimson, shaded velvety blackish red, very large, double, fine form, cupped, lasting, fragrance 6/10, floriferous, blooms continuosly with interruptions, elongated buds, long stems, upright, growth 7/10, 70cm. Sangerhausen"
Fragrance is only 6/10? What people are growing in the US now as Barcelona is a very, very fragrant rose. So is it really Barcelona? Did Sangerhausen evaluate the correct rose, or not, per above? Or maybe The Huntington got their plant direct from Kordes????
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Tessie - have you had a look at the Notes on the main page?
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Tessies, Kim responded your question on the sprawling Francis Dubreuil thread:
Just scroll to the end :-)
http://www.houzz.com/discussions/1705818#14914820
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#6 of 9 posted
12 MAY 15 by
Tessie
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Yes, I've looked at both the notes and the Houzz thread. No provenance stated. Kim indicates he didn't check the records at the huntington, so he doesn't know the details on this rose. Although he mentioned a number of possible sources, we don't know from which one the Huntington acquired theirs. There are so many plants in commerce incorrectly identified as well as named varieties where there are multiple different roses being sold with the same name. And so much effort seems to be going into tracking down the real Francis Dubreuil, it seems reasonable to do a little verifying on Barcelona too.
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Why don't you contact them directly, they might be able to help you :-)
http://huntington.org/WebAssets/Templates/content.aspx?id=542
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Kim is quite correct in what he says about Francis Dubrueil and Barcelona. Francis has the much STR get scent of the two.It is as he says much like Oklaholma in style except that it is much darker bel g the shade of very dark amaranth and Black mulberry with blackberry overtones. Towards to middle and lower parts of the petals it lightens and becomes crimson scarlet and purple/pink.Even after 100 years it rarely exceeds more than a metre in height being very erect rather than loose and spreading. Barcelona is quite different for instance it is a shiny red with out being velvety like Francis D. IT IS ALSO more cupped once it has expands.
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I would not consider what n’ Chemins de la Rose ’ states, since they write about roses they have just acquired bare root one month earlier..
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Mistydowns are stocking this one now
http://mistydowns.com.au/plant_display/display/2494-cammnethan-house-red-tea
Also, I'm no expert but the Tea rose book describes this one as tall and upright, which in their parlance means around 2 metres or so, while descriptions of 'Princesse de Sagan' say it is a small bush of up to 80 cm.
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David Elliott's photo of a bush labelled P de S at Lyon looks more like the 2m, but of course it may not be correctly identified.
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#2 of 12 posted
29 JAN 15 by
Jane Z
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Height, width & depth of between 1.8-2m would be expected for "Camnethan Cherry Red" in most areas where Teas grow. For whatever reason, sizes given in some Australian catalogues do not reflect the growth that 'local' conditions will produce. Photo's taken July 2006 central west NSW Australia
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Yes I've noticed that about sizes in catalogues. Mistydowns often seems to give sizes that make sense for a youngish bush in a cooler climate, or for a heavily pruned bush, but when other sources are checked they'll often indicate rampant growth and up to twice the size, depending.
I have a suspicion that some nurseries rely mainly on customers who have suburban gardens, and don't want to scare off the punters, so give sizes that indicate what it can be kept to without killing it instead of sizes that the thing will naturally aim for if given half a chance.
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Worth a thousand words. Brilliant! Thanks Jane.
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Why are you connecting these two different roses?
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A rose identical with "Camnethan Cherry Red" was seen in the US (by one or more of the Tealadies, as far as I remember) labelled 'Princesse de Sagan'. I hope they will comment further.
As you know, the rose sold in Aus as P de S is incorrect. So photos of P de S from Australia should be disregarded, really.
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IanM's comment below, Discussion id : 57-888, mentions he thinks it is P de S. I saw his comment when posting mine.
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If you listen hard enough, I am sure you will find 365 different opinions from all over the world on a rose.
I try to form my own opinions and it seems to me that the 'Princesse de Sagan' references for 1887, 1898, 1906, 1907, 1916 and 1921 all point to this original rose being a small bush.
My 15-year old, unpruned "Camnethan Cherry Red" on its own roots is about 2 metres high.
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Jedmar's comment on his photos of Princesse de Sagan ex Loubert are of interest - maybe mislabelled, maybe Prof Ganiviat (which is what the Aus-sold rose is considered most likely to be). So I wonder if the tall rose labelled P de S, photographed by David Elliot at Lyon, was from the same source.
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Margret you mention Professeur Graniviat as the likely contender for what many are calling Princesses de Sagan .IN this you are quite correct I believe .The Professeur is A cherry pink/ red and like many ,doesn't tend to have the white stripe that occasionally comes in the red varieties. Growth habitats are slightly different but you would need to be familiar with both to appreciate this. On the whole the Professeur is the slightly better rose I feel. But that is just me and I tend to be fairly tough and if I don't like something I either won't grew it or it gets pulled out and binned. I have several new roses which after four years are about to meet the bin.I wonder why they were released as the deleted ones even if they had black spot were still better plants.
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I'm increasingly of the opinion that there are too many roses.
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#12 of 12 posted
2 SEP 18 by
HubertG
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Princess de Sagan is a blacked rose than FRANCIS Dubrueil.Its perfume rates as less 6/10. ITS IS LIKE black flat velvet with it absorbing the the light marking it darker. IT IS a tall very erect grower and is quite vigorous. IT IS very thorny and sets some seed so appears to be diploid.
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If you have access to an original Princesse de Sagan, rather than the Prof Ganiviat which is sold under that name in Australia, it would be important to make budwood (in early December) or cuttings available to be shared around, please, for study and to prevent its being lost again.
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#2 of 4 posted
31 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Aussie rose lover, If you could possibly upload a photograph that would be great too!
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That would be wonderful; it sounds like you have a very significant collection. Given the fragility of heritage roses in Australia - Mistydowns, Melville's and other nurseries cutting back, Thomas for Roses likely to close, the extreme uncertainty of the future of the HRIAI collection at Renmark - it's crucial that there be backup for the rarities across at least two states, and preferably further. I leave research to those with more expertise than mine; my role has been propagating for the Renmark collection, spreading the roses around, and photographing. Distributing the rarities has become more difficult, with inter-state quarantine tightening.
Pat (ozoldroser) lives in the Barossa - would you be willing to send her a private message re checking out the garden you used to weed (she would obtain permission from the current owners). I'm in the Hills, if the garden wasn't in the Barossa.
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#5 of 4 posted
1 SEP 18 by
HubertG
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That's exciting that this rose could become commercially available.
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