HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
|
|
|
ThomasR 
-
-
Initial post
24 AUG 08 by
Cass
|
I counted the buds in a large cluster on this interesting found rose. The count was over 50 buds. The leaves have up to 9 leaflets.
|
REPLY
|
|
Need Photos?? I will add some!
Jeri Jennings
|
REPLY
|
|
I think I can add some more, too.
Jeri
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#5 of 5 posted
22 APR by
ThomasR
|
Hi, the May 2009 picture by Cass caught my attention. It shows some buds whose petals are somehow leaking sideway out of the sepals.
Last spring I was investigating a rose previously found in the edge of an abandonned orchard, blooming from Spring to november. Its buds very recurrently showed the same habit, both on original plant and cutting. Whether looking at pictures or at other shrubs in my garden, I only found this habit on damask roses, some gallicas, the 'bourbon' Rouge Marbrée, and Belle De Baltimore, which is said to be a Gallica hybrid.
I didn't find the time to pursue my researches, but the 1846, and also 1848 references about damask perpetual Belle De Trianon and Vibert's work from it had me wonder if some of the old noisette-looking found roses could belong to another class... I am joining some pictures of the rose I found.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
I have been investigating a possible identity for this beautiful found rose, and would be interested to hear from others what you think.
Curtis' Beauties of the Rose, reprinted by Sweetbriar Press with a listing of American nurseries who offered the roses Curtis illustrated in the mid-to-late 1800s, illustrates a number of roses of this type—very double, globular-formed blooms of rich shades of crimson and cherry red, often with pale reverses.
One of these has not been rediscovered, though it was offered by the California Nursery Co. during the height of the Gold Rush when many roses were planted in the foothills towns. The rose I'm referring to is 'Robin Hood' from Jean Laffay, prior to 1848. This is just the beginning of a search for more information, and the combing of resources. For those who love found roses, this is what it's all about!
|
REPLY
|
|
Does it bloom in clusters? How high and wide? HelpMeFind needs more photos of characteristics. Could “Copperopolis Bar” be a bourbon?
I note that “Copperopolis Bar” is said to be similar to “Tylor Carll” but a different colour. However there is a comment in “Tylor Carll” from Fred Boutin who says “I have grown and observed the "Tylor Carll" rose for 30 years and have noticed all the variations and mixes in colors from light red to dark red to black with an array of bluish violets and purples”.
|
REPLY
|
|
Thanks Patricia, and thanks to everyone for your patience. The last number of comments I've made on roses in HMF have been slow to receive reactions. I wasn't prepared to hear back so soon! Patricia, I have not yet had time to do photos of the plant parts, and will do so in the Spring and post them here. Copperopolis does bloom with several buds is a cluster, each opening in succession so that it's display is prolonged. The color varies considerably in our climate, so I would not be surprised by Fred Boutin comparing two roses that are both perhaps so variable in coloring. In our garden it ranges from crimson, the sort of color we see in modern roses like Oklahoma, to a rich cool red, but pink in comparison to such dark reds. I have continued to study other possibilities including Baronne Hallez, another of the very double globular reds introduced into California in the mid 19th century. Hallez does not exhibit a pale reverse to the petals in Curtis' illustration. Copperopolis has been a willing grower, but not a large plant for me after three years of growing. Curtis says Hallez is 'very robust.' I don't put a lot of stock in size descriptions, but rather assume that until a foundling can be budded onto a suitable rootstock, we don't really know if it is vigorous or not. I'll be back with photos of Copperopolis' parts in the Spring. -Gregg
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#2 of 9 posted
8 OCT by
Lee H.Reply
#3 of 9 posted
8 OCT by
Lee H.
|
'Copperopolis Bar' may be the clunkiest name ever given to a rose. Mark Twain would have called it 'The Celebrated Red Rose of Calaveras County' ;-)
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 9 posted
9 OCT by
Johno
|
The photo immediately reminded me of a HP that use to grow in the garden: Victor Hugo (Schwartz, 1884). Bloom colour in the description doesn't worry me (when does dark pink become red?), but petal count for Victor Hugo may not be enough to match. I note Victor Hugo is listed in The Friends of Vintage Roses Collection so it may be worth comparing.
Unfortunately, it will be difficult to show the rose is Robin Hood based on an image from a C19 text
|
REPLY
|
|
Hi Johno!
We grew Victor Hugo for a number of years, but ultimately lost it. It was literally scooped out of the ground and washed to sea during a fierce winter storm that tore an eight by eight foot gorge that was carved on one edge of the garden. I'm still trying to locate cuttings of it.
Copperopolis is somewhat smaller in bloom than VH, as I recall it. But it is the form that is so distinctive. It has what you might call the 'Ranunculus' form, very globular, not just in the bud stage but through the life of the bloom. It is the characteristic that I find most people are struck by. with petal edges that don't just curve downward but roll neatly under the petal.
I don't expect to be able to make a certain identification of this found beauty, but I cannot resist comparing it to reasonably possibilities (like having documented cataloguing that shows it was imported into the area where it was found a hundred or more years later.) And in following that trail, I find this discussion of that 'group' of HPs that were in demand and well loved at the time. To suggest that Copperolis may be among that group, is to provide a touchstone plant that survives, which provides a living example of the group. -Gregg
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#5 of 9 posted
11 DEC by
ThomasR
|
Francia Thauvin's website shows pictures of some rare Hybrid Perpetuals, often there is just one picture, but I was wondering if this could help?
|
REPLY
|
|
Thank you, Thomas!
I had not hear of her nursery and the website is superb! I will spend some time on it.
Cheers, Gregg
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#9 of 9 posted
14 DEC by
ThomasR
-
-
|
This rose defoliates completely due to blackspot this year. It is over here nor heat or drought resistant. When sprayed with the earlier described sulfur solution it behaves way better is my experience.
Moonlight (KORklemol), Tiffany Cl. and the "golden oldie" Sutter's Gold Cl. behave way better: No blackspot at all, healthy foliage that remains on the plant... and lots of new canes and flowers.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 2 posted
18 JUN 23 by
ThomasR
|
In France we call this rose "Pierre De Ronsard" or just "Ronsard". I never saw a large choice of roses at nurseries but there was always this one. Growing in a semi-enclosed courtyard it tended to be a big unealthy shrub with poor rebloom. Usually Spring always comes here with days of Vent d'Autant (wind) which is terrible for roses. But this year Springtime was unusually rainy, with moments of burning sun. Many roses would ball, get brown or fried, and get black spot. Monsieur Louis Ricard got so black I could barely see the spots. But weirdly le Ronsard was thriving this year. Is it because I only kept two naked leggy canes with foliage and blooms farther from the ground, or did it like the pony's Hartog leftovers I threw at it this winter ? Thank you for reminding me I had a box of garden sulphur...
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#2 of 2 posted
19 JUN 23 by
Jay-Jay
|
Thank You for Your reply. I mostly refer to this rose as Pierre de Ronsard, but in a hurry, or a bit lazy, I use the name Eden... that's way shorter.
Most years Pierre de Ronsard looked better. Maybe it's getting more prone to blackspot over the years.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
Rose Listing Omission
Alberic-looking rambler, found rose
Hello, I would like to create a rose file about a rambling rose I found in an abandoned orchard/vegetable garden. After taking cuttings and observing it, I am not totally sure it is Albéric, Gardenia, Fraulein Octavia Hesse, La Perle... I also found a similar Albéric type of rose on another location, with some differences visible on both original and cutting. Maybe it would be a good idea creating two files, but I don't have many pictures of the second rose. This would help me gathering information as well as other members' opinions.
Best regards, Thomas.
|
REPLY
|
|
Thomas, would you take a look at my photo in the Alberic Barbier file:
Rose photo courtesy of Patricia Routley
'Alberic Barbier' 005 right; with 'Excelsa' left. Own roots at Northcliffe, W.A. Feb 24, 2013. Provenance of 'Alberic Barbier', P.T., SA in 2007. Leaves.
Uploaded 26 OCT 13
I find the the foliage is most distinctive. The leaflets are long and flat with only the midrib showing any indentation. If your roses seem to have a different leaf, give us their proposed “study names” and we will open pages for them.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#2 of 4 posted
17 JUN 23 by
ThomasR
|
Patricia, the leaves seem to match your description, plus glandular hairs on the rachis and hooked prickles under. I had read that you noticed it was almost thornless, as written in an early description. The rambler I am growing is prickly, not impressively but enough to be defensive, and I tend to be more careful about touching it than Double Scotch Rose as an example.
Here are the other points that I noticed and that make me uncertain about it :
-Rambler1 and Rambler2 showed consistently this difference on both original and cutting : Rambler1 quite is hard-petalled, especially in the center. It is exceptional to catch a glimpse of what could be a stamen. Center petals/petaloids are softer on Rambler2, and you can see some stamens.
-Original Rambler2 is showing a more weeping habit but it maybe due to it growing within a cypress hedge, as opposed to original Rambler1 in unpruned spindles and fig trees.
I will search through my files and add pictures as soon as I can.
Thank you !
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 4 posted
17 JUN 23 by
ThomasR
|
Picture from the original Rambler1.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 4 posted
17 JUN 23 by
ThomasR
|
Rambler 1 clone from cutting (2 years old). The flowers are wonderfully crumpled, more than the Albéric Barbier pictures I see but maybe the difference is too subtle. There are other roses I am investigating, like François Poisson... It is not clear to me yet.
|
REPLY
|
|
|
