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Hi, I just noticed twenty buds on an Alba Suaveolens (from Lottum) yesterday - see pictures ; it is mid-fall in France and the buds were scattered all across the bush. I guess the weather may have tricked it into some reblooming, also I thought the leaves looked less healthy as usual this year. I didnt notice that on other once-bloomers Double Scotch, wichuraianas and local wild roses... Except for Rouge Marbrée which for the first time is showing flowers in Autumn. I was wondering if someone had a similar experience with an Alba rose ?
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The Vintage Garden Book of Roses stated that they, the nursery proprietors, had had reports of rebloom on Alba maxima. Alba semiplena, maxima and suaveolens are all members of the same sport family. I don't have a citation, but I believe it has now been determined that the albas came from a (probably) spontaneous cross between R. canina and a Damask rose. We do know that some of the Damasks do rebloom, so I think it is entirely possible that the albas may have inherited a reblooming recessive gene which occasionally expresses as scattered fall bloom.
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#2 of 6 posted
12 NOV by
ThomasR
Thank you Nastarana for your reference, I couldnt find any, this book seems to be a collector !
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A Most Treasured Possession for those of us who bought one when the nursery was closing.
I hope fair use covers this: Vintage Garden Book of Roses, 2006, p. 23, from the description of Alba maxima:
"Late summer rebloom in California is reliable on mature plants that are well grown."
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#4 of 6 posted
13 NOV by
ThomasR
This is so interesting ! I just read hypothesis about the origins of Albas, I think there is still a doubt about their lineage, and also I was wondering how they behaved in different climates. Another bloom that surprised me the same day was from rosaceae Cydonia Oblonga.
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Do you know of any source for non-paywalled information about the origin of the alba group?
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#6 of 6 posted
16 NOV by
ThomasR
There is an article in the newsletter of the World Federation Of Rose Societies ("By Any Other Name"issue 26) in which Karin Schade explains her work on the Alba group. The editorial note states that the origin of Albas is still uncertain. I will send you the link in a private message.
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Initial post
24 AUG 08 by
Cass
I counted the buds in a large cluster on this interesting found rose. The count was over 50 buds. The leaves have up to 9 leaflets.
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Need Photos?? I will add some!
Jeri Jennings
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I think I can add some more, too.
Jeri
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#5 of 5 posted
22 APR by
ThomasR
Hi, the May 2009 picture by Cass caught my attention. It shows some buds whose petals are somehow leaking sideway out of the sepals. Last spring I was investigating a rose previously found in the edge of an abandonned orchard, blooming from Spring to november. Its buds very recurrently showed the same habit, both on original plant and cutting. Whether looking at pictures or at other shrubs in my garden, I only found this habit on damask roses, some gallicas, the 'bourbon' Rouge Marbrée, and Belle De Baltimore, which is said to be a Gallica hybrid. I didn't find the time to pursue my researches, but the 1846, and also 1848 references about damask perpetual Belle De Trianon and Vibert's work from it had me wonder if some of the old noisette-looking found roses could belong to another class... I am joining some pictures of the rose I found.
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I have been investigating a possible identity for this beautiful found rose, and would be interested to hear from others what you think. Curtis' Beauties of the Rose, reprinted by Sweetbriar Press with a listing of American nurseries who offered the roses Curtis illustrated in the mid-to-late 1800s, illustrates a number of roses of this type—very double, globular-formed blooms of rich shades of crimson and cherry red, often with pale reverses. One of these has not been rediscovered, though it was offered by the California Nursery Co. during the height of the Gold Rush when many roses were planted in the foothills towns. The rose I'm referring to is 'Robin Hood' from Jean Laffay, prior to 1848. This is just the beginning of a search for more information, and the combing of resources. For those who love found roses, this is what it's all about!
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Does it bloom in clusters? How high and wide? HelpMeFind needs more photos of characteristics. Could “Copperopolis Bar” be a bourbon? I note that “Copperopolis Bar” is said to be similar to “Tylor Carll” but a different colour. However there is a comment in “Tylor Carll” from Fred Boutin who says “I have grown and observed the "Tylor Carll" rose for 30 years and have noticed all the variations and mixes in colors from light red to dark red to black with an array of bluish violets and purples”.
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Thanks Patricia, and thanks to everyone for your patience. The last number of comments I've made on roses in HMF have been slow to receive reactions. I wasn't prepared to hear back so soon! Patricia, I have not yet had time to do photos of the plant parts, and will do so in the Spring and post them here. Copperopolis does bloom with several buds is a cluster, each opening in succession so that it's display is prolonged. The color varies considerably in our climate, so I would not be surprised by Fred Boutin comparing two roses that are both perhaps so variable in coloring. In our garden it ranges from crimson, the sort of color we see in modern roses like Oklahoma, to a rich cool red, but pink in comparison to such dark reds. I have continued to study other possibilities including Baronne Hallez, another of the very double globular reds introduced into California in the mid 19th century. Hallez does not exhibit a pale reverse to the petals in Curtis' illustration. Copperopolis has been a willing grower, but not a large plant for me after three years of growing. Curtis says Hallez is 'very robust.' I don't put a lot of stock in size descriptions, but rather assume that until a foundling can be budded onto a suitable rootstock, we don't really know if it is vigorous or not. I'll be back with photos of Copperopolis' parts in the Spring. -Gregg
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#2 of 9 posted
8 OCT 23 by
Lee H.
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#3 of 9 posted
8 OCT 23 by
Lee H.
'Copperopolis Bar' may be the clunkiest name ever given to a rose. Mark Twain would have called it 'The Celebrated Red Rose of Calaveras County' ;-)
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#4 of 9 posted
9 OCT 23 by
Johno
The photo immediately reminded me of a HP that use to grow in the garden: Victor Hugo (Schwartz, 1884). Bloom colour in the description doesn't worry me (when does dark pink become red?), but petal count for Victor Hugo may not be enough to match. I note Victor Hugo is listed in The Friends of Vintage Roses Collection so it may be worth comparing. Unfortunately, it will be difficult to show the rose is Robin Hood based on an image from a C19 text
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Hi Johno! We grew Victor Hugo for a number of years, but ultimately lost it. It was literally scooped out of the ground and washed to sea during a fierce winter storm that tore an eight by eight foot gorge that was carved on one edge of the garden. I'm still trying to locate cuttings of it. Copperopolis is somewhat smaller in bloom than VH, as I recall it. But it is the form that is so distinctive. It has what you might call the 'Ranunculus' form, very globular, not just in the bud stage but through the life of the bloom. It is the characteristic that I find most people are struck by. with petal edges that don't just curve downward but roll neatly under the petal. I don't expect to be able to make a certain identification of this found beauty, but I cannot resist comparing it to reasonably possibilities (like having documented cataloguing that shows it was imported into the area where it was found a hundred or more years later.) And in following that trail, I find this discussion of that 'group' of HPs that were in demand and well loved at the time. To suggest that Copperolis may be among that group, is to provide a touchstone plant that survives, which provides a living example of the group. -Gregg
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#5 of 9 posted
11 DEC 23 by
ThomasR
Francia Thauvin's website shows pictures of some rare Hybrid Perpetuals, often there is just one picture, but I was wondering if this could help?
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Thank you, Thomas! I had not hear of her nursery and the website is superb! I will spend some time on it. Cheers, Gregg
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#9 of 9 posted
14 DEC 23 by
ThomasR
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This rose defoliates completely due to blackspot this year. It is over here nor heat or drought resistant. When sprayed with the earlier described sulfur solution it behaves way better is my experience. Moonlight (KORklemol), Tiffany Cl. and the "golden oldie" Sutter's Gold Cl. behave way better: No blackspot at all, healthy foliage that remains on the plant... and lots of new canes and flowers.
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#1 of 2 posted
18 JUN 23 by
ThomasR
In France we call this rose "Pierre De Ronsard" or just "Ronsard". I never saw a large choice of roses at nurseries but there was always this one. Growing in a semi-enclosed courtyard it tended to be a big unealthy shrub with poor rebloom. Usually Spring always comes here with days of Vent d'Autant (wind) which is terrible for roses. But this year Springtime was unusually rainy, with moments of burning sun. Many roses would ball, get brown or fried, and get black spot. Monsieur Louis Ricard got so black I could barely see the spots. But weirdly le Ronsard was thriving this year. Is it because I only kept two naked leggy canes with foliage and blooms farther from the ground, or did it like the pony's Hartog leftovers I threw at it this winter ? Thank you for reminding me I had a box of garden sulphur...
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#2 of 2 posted
19 JUN 23 by
Jay-Jay
Thank You for Your reply. I mostly refer to this rose as Pierre de Ronsard, but in a hurry, or a bit lazy, I use the name Eden... that's way shorter. Most years Pierre de Ronsard looked better. Maybe it's getting more prone to blackspot over the years.
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