HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Marita Protte
most recent 11 JAN 22 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 JAN 22 by Marita Protte
meanwhile this rose is also listet in the Rosegarden of Sangerhausen
Reply #1 of 7 posted 9 JAN 22 by Margaret Furness
Do you mean 'Louise'?
Reply #2 of 7 posted 9 JAN 22 by jedmar
If 'Louise' I would question how a rose which has been extinct for a century would appear now in Sangerhausen. Marita's photos from Sangerhausen show a single centifolia as a "found" rose. I am asking myself whether this is a sport/reversion which appears from time to time.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 10 JAN 22 by Marita Protte
I have been looking for an answer to this question for a long time. There is actually a connection between Josephine de Beauharnaise and the Seeon Abbey / Upper Bavaria, where I found this rose
More precisely, this rose was brought to me in 2014 by a farmer who lives in Guggenbichl, less than 2 km from Seeon / Upper Bavaria. This monastery was bought in 1852 by Amelie, a daughter of Prince Eugene de Beauharnaise / 1st Duke of Leuchtenberg and son Josephine de Beauharnais ‘. Since Amelie's only daughter dies early, the monastery falls to Amelie's nephew Nicholas. I was able to trace the origin of the simple centifoil back to around 1927. At that time the rose was in the garden of Bibiane Oberhofer, who had worked as a young girl for the Leuchtenbergs in the Seeon monastery. According to reports from her family, she had received the rose from the Leuchtenbergs and planted it in her own garden. From there this rose wandered through different hands to Guggenbichl.
It will probably not be possible to finally clarify whether this rose comes from Josephine's collection or is a chance seedling. Whether an old garden directory from Seeon can still be found in the Leuchtenbergs archive would be worth a visit.
There are no more old roses on the monastery grounds today. However, there are still numerous R. X damascena Celsiana in many gardens around Seeon. This could indicate that other roses have also found their way into the neighborhood from the monastery.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 11 JAN 22 by jedmar
Thank you for this interesting history of provenance. As Dupont's 'La Louise' is not mentioned by Prevost, Boitard and other authors, and Otto/Nietner declare it later to be afull rose instead of single, I believe that the existing single centifolia is a new reversion/seedling, not a clone of Dupont's original plant.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 10 JAN 22 by Marita Protte
I asked the owner for one more layer to give it to Sangerhausen, cause I thought it should be there.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 10 JAN 22 by Marita Protte
I mean Rosa centifolia simplex, "Louise" is one of its synonyms
Reply #7 of 7 posted 11 JAN 22 by jedmar
HMF Admin, can we move this whole thread to Plant 22555 Louise (centifolia) please?
most recent 11 JAN 22 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 JAN 22 by Marita Protte
as a reference for this rose Nietner's book "Die Rose" is namend, published 1880. But the Centifolia "Louise", mentioned on page 72 is described as Full. Seems as if we will have to cancel this reference.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 9 JAN 22 by jedmar
As I understand your point, the synonym 'Louise' for the single centifolia is incorrect and should be separated.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 10 JAN 22 by Marita Protte
No, I think only Nietners book should be removed.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 10 JAN 22 by jedmar
We do not remove references, even if they are incorrect. The history of older publications is also enlightening. The centifolia 'Louise' needs more research.
Reply #5 of 4 posted 11 JAN 22 by jedmar
We have added further references, especially showing that Dupont obtained the single 'La Louise' from seed of a semi-double centifolia before 1805, and that Hardy considered it in 1837 a synonym of centifolia simplex.
most recent 1 MAY 19 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 1 MAY 19 by Marita Protte
There are two found roses, one from Finland (Pikkala), one from Germany (Johannes Jena). I grow both roses in the rosegarden of Trostberg and they are completely identical. I'm becoming more and more convinced that this rose may be the lost centifolia D'Auteuil.
C. Nickels describes D'Auteuil 1845 in his book; Cultur, Benennung und Beschreibung der Rosen, on page 50 as:
"Prächtig, guten Geruch. Blkre. lebhaft und stark rosenrot, oder bläulich rosenroth, zu Zeiten etwas punktiert, bei 4 gefüllt, abgeplattet gebaut; Stamm, Stblätter. und Dorne, sind mehr jenen der gallischen Rosen ähnlich."
This discription matches with my studies of the roses. Who ever is interested and wants to compare the found rose with the descriptions of D'Auteuil can view the page on hmf about "Pikkala", or visit our Rosegarden in Trostberg Bavaria.
most recent 5 JUL 18 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 5 JUL 18 by Marita Protte
Hallo Marcir, hast Du nach wie vor die "Margherita Croze" in Deinem Garten? Meine musste vor zwei Jahren wegen Umbauarbeiten "ausgelagert" werden und hat diesen Umzug nicht überlebt. Heute habe ich Nachricht von Sangerhausen bekommen, dass deren "Margherita Croze" der Trockenheit zum Opfer gefallen ist. Jetzt hoffe ich, dass Deine wenigstens noch lebt.
Lieben Gruss

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