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'Rosa X odorata 'Pallida'' rose Reviews & Comments
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I live in a very humid area and this rose is very susceptible to powdery mildew in my garden..as Mutabilis
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Initial post
30 DEC 20 by
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I have two plants of Old Blush in my garden - the first, the slightly older one, is in a north-ish facing, shady area, and the second is in full sun, south-west facing. I have noticed that there is a difference in the flower size and shape between the two plants. While the difference in shape is sometimes quite subtle, the shadier example is usually more reflexed and full of petals, while the sunny example has smaller, more numerous flowers, that are usually more cupped in shape. The shady example has flowers that are quite a bit bigger, sometimes as much as nearly twice the size. The sunny example sets some hips, the shady one does not. No discernible difference in repeat flowering.
Has anyone else noticed differences in how this variety grows depending on aspect, light etc? I know in theory that roses are liable to grow differently depending on many factors, but I thought this comparison in my own garden was quite interesting.
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#1 of 36 posted
31 OCT 18 by
 jedmar
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Have you obtained both plants from the same source. There are probably different clones of 'Old Blush' in commerce.
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Well, if truth be told, yes they are from different sources - the shady one from David Austin and the sunny one from Trevor White - however, I have to state that they both started out looking EXACTLY the same when I bought them, but whereas the sunny one is more or less as it was originally, the shady one is the one that has changed since it was planted in that position, and sometimes, in some weather conditions, it is still more or less the same as the sunny one, such as at the moment. It was more in the warmer weather in summer that the change was more noticeable. So while I think it isn't impossible that they are different, I think it is far more likely that they are the same. But I would have to check their sources to be absolutely sure.
Excuse my ignorance, but would different clones of the same variety have such a difference?
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#3 of 36 posted
31 OCT 18 by
jedmar
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Yes, different clones means that they are not exactly the same plant. Different nurseries could be carrying different roses under the same name - with a rose as old as 'Old Blush' many variations are possible over 2 centuries. There will always be question marks until we start receiving roses with a DNA certificate! To come back on the other factors, yes, soil and location can have an influence, as well as the type of understock used.
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Wow, so not really at all that surprising that there may be some difference, even if they are both 'Old Blush'!
So to make a fair comparison, I would really need to have a rose from Trevor White in the shady position, or vice versa, and then judge any difference? Ok, that is all very interesting.
I must admit I had known of there being slight differences in some varieties depending on the source, but I had always put that down to either them being a different variety under the wrong name, or due to any climatic differences between different countries, but I had thought in my ignorance that all the UK nurseries would probably have the same plant from the same source - you learn something new everyday! Thanks for your answers.
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I don't have this rose but I would put forward the claim that it's unlikely they are different clones, as I would bet on it they come from the same original source - Beales most likely, and he probably got his stock from Sangerhausen..
I think the differences you are seeing are down to moisture in the soil, you will have more in the shady area than in the sunny one, I find this is the case in my garden too, especially this summer with all the heat, the shady area roses have been much fuller and larger than the ones in sun... and longer lasting too... just my tuppence worth...
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My 'Old Blush' that's grown in a pot came from Austin and it looks most like your plant grown in the sun. The flowers do vary with the weather and time of year. During the extreme heat this summer they were noticeably darker and smaller.
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Hi both, thanks for your thoughts.
Marlorena - I must admit that I always assumed that all the 'Old Blush' available in the UK would be from the same original source, as I would most old roses, namely either: 1. Peter Beales, probably from Sangerhausen as you say, 2. Sangerhausen direct, 3. Graham S. Thomas, or 4. Humphrey Brooke.
Well, what you say about conditions would make a lot of sense, and if you have had similar things with your roses, then that sounds like the probable answer to me.
Andrew - exactly, my Austin was like that when I bought it. Yes, the one in the sun did exactly as you describe when it was hot, getting smaller and smaller, to the point that it gave up altogether after a while and only got going again in the last month or so!
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P.s. Do such variations in clones of the same plant come about from situations such as people using different branches for taking cuttings or for budding, by using different individual plants from different places at different times, and thereby incorporating any differences in said 'bit'? I ask because, now I think about it, I read once about how some people said that Frau Karl Druschki had lost the ability to set hips, whilst others said that it still could - is that the sort of thing that can happen, with both plants still being the same variety? Sorry if I haven't put that very well, but hopefully you get the gist of what I mean!
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There is a plant of 'Old Blush' trained against the wall of East Lambrook Manor, former home of Margery Fish. It was probably planted in the mid-19th century.
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Ah yes, I saw your lovely entries on that earlier - well of course, that is another possible source; do you know if the current owners know whether anyone ever took wood or eyes from it?
It must be lovely to have a rose as old as that on their property, that you can trace back through the houses' history like some sort of distant relative! I love things like that - I always wonder about all the people that have walked by it and smelt its blooms down the ages.
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#10 of 36 posted
31 OCT 18 by
jedmar
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That is definiely the case when a rose is propagated in large numbers. I read in a publication from the 1920's where they were speaking about a 'La France' sickness which had been caused by weak plants of 'La France' having been extensively propagated. Another source said that according to from what part of the plant an eye was taken for grafting, the tendency to get a climbing version could be influenced. I think we have to accept that each eye is a potential source of a mutation, even if it happens only once in a million.
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So in that way, are cuttings more 'reliable' then, especially if from a healthy, vigorous specimen?
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Old Blush is a survivor rose in South Australia, and presumably in other areas with Mediterranean climates. Plenty to be found on roadsides and old gardens. Mine came from a roadside and tries to climb through Cl Maman Cochet, but Chinas have a talent for climbing to reach the light when they have to. Viridiflora, for example, is 2.1m high in my garden, through an acacia.
Some climbers are easier to make climb via budding than from cuttings - Cl Devoniensis and Cl Lady Hillingdon, in my limited experience. But in general, I prefer cutting-grown roses (only of those that don't sucker), as being more resilient. And of course, budding increases the chance of acquiring a virus. I recognise that some roses aren't strong enough without the support of an understock, and that R indica major understocks are thought to be a major factor in survival of old roses in drought-prone areas.
If you wanted a plant of a rose that is considered to have weakened from over-propagation, eg Peace, I'd think that either a budded or cutting-grown rose would be OK provided it comes from a plant known to be old and healthy.
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Hi Margaret,
You are right, I have found both of mine have that talent for reaching out! - the sunny one is making damn sure it is above some enveloping Potentillas and keeping them in their place, and the shady one has reached whatever level it needs for some extra light. To be honest I have been really impressed with them, and I have a new found affection for Chinas (assuming 'Old Blush' is a good, average example). I'm definitely thinking of adding some more, where space permits.
Speaking of clones, from a breeding point of view, does it make any difference to the resulting offspring?
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As a knee-jerk reaction from a woefully unsuccessful rose breeder, I'd say so. Animal-breeders from way back have chosen the healthiest and strongest of their stock to breed from. As has evolution.
Jedmar is right, many variations are possible over a couple centuries. The Tealadies refer to Slater's-type China, rather than just Slater's Crimson China, because it's likely that many plants sold here in the 19th century at least were seed-grown. (My churchyard-collected plant is a bright patch in the garden). And names get lost. There are a string of Hume's Blush candidates around, rather than a single one with documented history and provenance. "Sophie's Perpetual" aka Paul's Dresden China, which may be Sans Epines, is one you might want to look at.
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That's all interesting stuff, and it all makes complete sense really.
Thanks, I will take a look at 'Sophie's Perpetual' again - I have seen it once many moons ago, but it wasn't my thing at the time - how times change!
If I were wanting a China (or a Tea) that was good in a pot, and wouldn't get bigger than say 2-3 feet, what would you recommend?
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I have added photos of Parsons’ Pink China, same provenance.
One is shade with no summer water.
One is full sun with water.
For me, it seems Parsons’ prefers shade.
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The Tea book recommends for large tubs Comtesse de Labarthe (Duchesse de Brabant), Mme Antoine Mari, Marie Lambert, Papa Gontier. But that's for warm climates. I don't know how they'd go, or how big they'd get, in your area.
I'd think any of the Chinas would be worth trying, but Mutabilis would probably get too big.
Growing roses in tubs is not something I do well.
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I grow 'Old Blush', 'Hume's Blush', Viridiflora', 'Sanguinea', 'Archduc Charles' and 'Slater's Crimson' in 50 litre pots against a south facing wall and they need a lot of watering and grow well, I have ordered 'Louis XIV. I also grow what Beale's claim to be 'Park's Yellow' which has grown 2.5M x 4M in 3 seasons and never flowered!
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Thank you Margaret and Andrew for the suggestions, I will go and do some thinking!
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Hi Patricia,
I agree, I would say that my shady plant is the better of the two overall.
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Hi Big Bear.... just to say, if you're looking for a China, for a pot, in our climate I would recommend the one sold as 'Bengal Crimson'... Andrew might know this as 'Sanguinea'... or 'Miss Lowe's Variety'... DNA testing has shown this to be closer to Tea type roses, but it grows well for me, I've had it both grafted and own root... as a grafted it grew to 3 foot, as own root from same plant, it grew as a climber in a sheltered spot, to 8 foot, but has reverted to a 3 footer moved to an exposed location.. flowers during winter sometimes... amazing rose, and kind of weird..
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'Bengal Crimson' grows but is rather weak, maybe 45CM, but it still manages to flower, it is very similar in constitution to 'Archduc Charles'. In the sheltered warmth and protection of the Chelsea Physic Garden it makes a much more substantial shrub and is almost constantly in flower. I had -7 on Monday night...
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You're in a right frost pocket... I had -1... same again tonight and I've got a clematis in flower so I've put fleece over it..[Clematis florida 'Vienetta']...
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-2 here last couple of nights. -7= ouch!
Ah, well I sort of already have 'Bengal Crimson' (or Bengal Beauty as we bought it), as my Grandma has it in her garden, so I'm claiming it! Its a lovely rose, very well behaved and nearly always in flower for 8+ months of the year. Again it is thriving in a semi-shade position.
Marlorena, when you talk about the DNA testing on it showing it was nearer to a Tea, did they find out anything else about it? Is it that it is a China cross with R. Gigantea or some such?
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The flower shape always reminds me of gigantea.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.281220
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My thoughts exactly, that's why I've often wondered if it was the result of something like R. Gigantea x Slater's Crimson. Great comparison photo.
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Big Bear..
..yes something like that... obviously this is a bit beyond me but it goes something like this...
The SSR [Simple Sequence Repeat] in the DNA of the tested China roses, which included 'Ducher' and 'Miss Lowe's Variety' [Bengal Crimson]… revealed that those China cultivars had Simple Sequence Repeat profiles more closely matching Tea roses.
It is thought these roses likely had a Tea Rose derived from R. odorata var. Gigantea on the maternal side.. as they also share a haplotype with this specie rose, rather than China roses...
Quoting directly... The SSR data already proved this incorrect for the ‘Slater’s Crimson China’ accession in this study, and also that it was unlikely that ‘Miss Lowe’s Variety’ was a sport of any China Rose based on its profile
The combination of the SSR PCoorA and the chloroplast haplotype data indicate that
‘Miss Lowe’s Variety’ is actually a dwarf type rose with strong Tea Rose type
background, and is not a sport of 'Slater's Crimson China'...
I'm going from my notes and cannot remember where I got this from, but it's out there somewhere... I found it quite interesting if a bit too involved.. you know?...
..but I do regard my 'Bengal Crimson' [Bengal Beauty, and all its other names], to be a Tea rose rather than a China, based on this..
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Marlorena, that's great, wherever you got it from. 'Quite interesting but a bit too involved' describes it well! I usually feel with such things like saying afterwards, 'Right, please could you say that again in English!' But I did actually understand most of it on this occasion. So all in all, quite a nice, interesting little rose - I think I may be borrowing pollen from it next year....
Btw, please call me Steve.
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Oh ok Steve, no probs.... I'm interested in this sort of thing if it's a rose I actually have in my garden, otherwise maybe not so much...
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#31 of 36 posted
2 NOV 18 by
jedmar
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it's from "Analysis of Genetic Diversity and Relationships in the China Rose Group", by Valerie Ann Soules, 2009
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The fact that ’ old blush ’ changes has nothing to do with the fact they are different clones, but this really depends on the great variability of the plant which might climb if on a Wall , and have bigger flowers almost looking like a Tea rose when it is not warm and with very beautiful shadings , to an ugly gray violet floribunda in extreme heat. All of this in the same plant . It is a true chameleon.
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Thank you for contributing to what is quite an old thread now! - It's one of the things I love about HMF!
That is a really interesting point - and would match quite well with my own experience with these two. Some years they are more alike, virtually the same, and others they are very different.
Do you have multiple plants of Old Blush? - if so, please could you give some specifics of where they are planted and how they are grown?
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I grow it in udine( italy ) I just got my plant which was a bush planted near a wall . I have been in the rose nursery fuel for 14 years and in this region there are quite old plants.
Friuli is the land of the last doge of Venice and there are some strange plants, like a gladiolus dalenii hybrid which is found nowhere than here,
Which might give a validity of the theory that this rose was long cultivated in Venice and Florence before it arrived in Sweden and then Uk.
Venice has a long story of trade with China .
I think people in the Uk, with their climate, have a very slight idea of what really China roses are
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#35 of 36 posted
29 DEC 20 by
jedmar
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Especially southern Italy is a very interesting region to rewrite the traditional history of roses:
- Sicily was Arabic until 1090. Any plants available in the Near East would have been traded there. The Norman conquest of Sicily and southern Italy actually increased the exchange with Islamic culture.
- Amalfi, near Naples, was a trading and shipping point for Orient even before Venice and Genova. Moslem, Indian and Jewish traders regularly supplied Indian and Chinese wares to Cairo and Alexandria, where they were picked up by the Amalfitans and later by the Venetians.
- An important center of pharmacological research was the medical school of Salerno, established around 950, near Naples and Amalfi. Here we find first references to Rosa rubra (gallica) after Dioscorides in Anatolia.
- South of Salerno is Paestum, where Roman writers reported of reblooming roses. We have concrete evidence that Roman traders were in southwest India (temples, coins) on the Malabar coast.
- The Portland rose was originally known as Paestana.
So many clues pointing to this region. We have only not followed them up properly yet.
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Yes i agree with you Jedmar . The south of italy is the key for a lot of things which are related to culture and horticulture. But ’ Chiang Wei ’ does not seem to be really present in the middle East nor in its culture, so this idea might and might not be possible
Then the south was receiving indirectly things as a colony, whereas Venice, Florence and Genoa managed to break in some cases the Arabic monopoly of the trade with China, so they might have it brought it.
Then the Bronzino’ s painting wich Hurst identified ’ ’Chiang Wei’ seems more likely. The name ’ rosa di ogni mese ’ Was present in tuscany, so for now the idea of the south of italy seems more remote.
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Margery Fish writes in 'A Flower for Every Day' (published by The Gardening Club, 1965). Mrs Fish's garden East Lambrook Manor is in Somerset in the south-west of England:
"My next choice, I think, would be a China rose. We were lucky in finding a healthy China rose beside the door into the garden. There were one of these roses in the first garden I remember, but we always called them "monthly" roses in those days. The flowers haven't the colour, the shape or the strong perfume of Albertine but they bloom in every month of the year. I have picked them at Christmas, and I enjoy the sight of the tree in June when it is covered with blossoms. We prune our old rose drastically and spray it when it is attacked by greenfly, and it remains strong and healthy. I think it must have been grown by our back door for at least a hundred years. A friend in the next village was born in this house, and she is now over eighty and says that the rose was there when her parents came to the house a good many years before she was born".
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'Old Blush' still growing by the door into the garden at East Lambrook Manor. 14/6/17
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Unusual way of growing it.
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Possibly it is 'Old Blush, Climbing.'
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Makes sense. I hadn't realised there was a climbing sport. Didn't think of that.
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Andrew, the photos and the references are quite historic. Well done for adding them. Do you think they should be added to the 'Old Blush Cl.' Page? (and have you struck this bush?)
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Page, 83 of 'A Flower for Every Day'. Comparing pictures, in the descriptions, I now think this is the bush form. The climber has more singular flowers along is branches rather than clusters like this typically produced by the bush. So, yes, Give me caffeine, it’s an unusual way of growing it. BTW, the description of 'Old Blush, Cl.' Says that it was introduced in 1792, that is a year before the introduction date of ‘Old Blush’ itself of 1793. Is this correct? I wish I had a better picture, my old camera was dying. My own plant of bush ‘Old Blush’ came from David Austin’.
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Old Blush
Bred by Unknown Chinese Breeder(s) (China, before 1793).
Discovered by Parsons (United Kingdom, 1793).
Old Blush Climbing
Discovered by Unknown 1752.
Perhaps not quite correct for the climber.
The operative word for the bush is bred BEFORE 1793 (by a few hundred years I believe)
I can only quote Brent Dickerson in The Old Rose Informant p467. The First Eighteen Chinas. "The dates of import, description, and commercial introduction of many of these early roses vie with each other for citation; they are vague and hard to settle, and sometimes might be called somehing of a legal fiction."
Peter Harkness in Modern Gardening Roses' says 'Old Blush' reached Sweden in 1752. I note this is the same date HelpMeFind has for the discovery of the climber.
I would like to be able to help more on the date for the climber, but just do not have the early source materials. Perhaps others can contribute?
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I see, thank you that’s interesting.
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Aren't there Chinese references dating back to the Song dynasty for this rose?
Or at least for something virtually indistinguishable from it.
I remember reading that somewhere, but can't remember where offhand.
Incidentally mine is looking fantastic at the moment. Spring is really agreeing with it this year. Makes wonderful cut flowers too, providing they are cut when just opened.
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