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'Lord Charlemont' rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
20 NOV 20 by
petera
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Does anyone in Australia have a decent plant of this variety that could be propagated? It has a lovely and unique flower but is one of the worst plants I have ever "grown" that does not actually die; it has been 4 years of continuing near-death experiences. If it grew even half as well as Prince Camille de Rohan I would persist with it.
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My experience is similar to yours petera. Our plant came from someone who propagated it from an old plant that had never lost track of its identity. Lord Charlemont was tremendously popular in Western Australia for several decades but the reasons for its popularity have yet to reveal themselves here.
It's a hard rose to warm to. Certainly, it's not stingy with its blooms, but the plant is seriously ugly. Equal parts prickles, dead wood and live canes but not enough foliage to disguise the awkward frame.
But it is alive and shows no sign of dying, despite neglect, so perhaps it would respond well to some pampering. Will report back if and when that happens.
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#2 of 22 posted
12 DEC 21 by
 jedmar
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Billy, a 'Lord Charlemont' with a known provenance could be useful to use in a DNA programme for identification of 'Barcelona'.
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#3 of 22 posted
13 DEC 21 by
HubertG
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That would be an exciting thing to do. Has HMF ever considered some sort of crowdfunding platform to raise funds to actualise projects like this?
I'd certainly contribute.
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It certainly would be useful.
I am unsure whether anyone in Australia is experienced in this sort of specialised work, and how costly it is.
There are a number of burning questions re possible identities of foundlings that could be tested if we had access to DNA comparison tests that reliably indicate parent/ offspring relationship.
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HRIA could fund it through a David Ruston Grant, I think. We just have to find a suitable lab. I gather it was tried through a haematology lab, and didn't work.
I'd like to compare - "Ma Lovelock's" and in-commerce Cloth of Gold
- Maman Cochet and "Bishop's Lodge Jane Isabella Linton'" (and a couple of other foundlings with similar receptacles - "Jane Hoey", "G Whatson")
- Penelope Tea and Hugo Roller
- Climbing Mrs Herbert Stevens and what some people insist is Niphetos
"Wood St Buff Yellow" and "Fake Perle"
Anna Olivier and "Stiff Lady Roberts"
"Agnes Smith" (Rookwood provenance) and Irene Watts ex Rosses
Probably others that have slipped my mind at present.
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#7 of 22 posted
13 DEC 21 by
jedmar
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In Sweden there was a programme of DNA testing of all found roses, which was reported at the 2018 WFRS conference in Copenhagen. I understood that this was made by extracting DNA from foliage, which should be possible all year round. Experience with DNA testing of roses is also available at the Universities of Lyon and Angers in France. A coordinated global effort led by rosarians is a very good idea.
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#18 of 22 posted
14 DEC 21 by
HMF Admin
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Can you please explain in a bit more detail what you are looking to accomplish,HMF is always open to enhancement.
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#4 of 22 posted
13 DEC 21 by
Johno
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Growing in a pot . Pruned hard this winter with the aim of improving the shape and more importantly to encourage new water shoots. Unfortunately the crown provided no new shoots but the Lord is no longer looking so lopsided.
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More.
It would be nice to compare "Bird Children" with a descendant of Souvenir d'un Ami (since its parents are unknown), but none of them are available in Australia, if they still exist.
And the rose thought to be Souvenir de Pierre Notting with its pollen parent Maman Cochet or (In Europe) with its offspring Mme Constant Soupert. I have concerns about its ID since we don't see persisting hips on it, but it has descendants as seed parent.
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#9 of 22 posted
13 DEC 21 by
HubertG
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I'd like to see "Dr. Grill ex Honeysuckle" tested against the other Dr. Grill sold in AUS (which seems to be 'W. R. Smith'), as well as against 'Souvenir de Victor Hugo'.
"Vestey's Pink Tea" against 'General Schablikine'.
"Bishop's Lodge Muriel Linton" (thought to be 'Hadley') against offspring of 'Hadley' such as 'Princeps'.
"Moser Striped Tea" against the Australian 'Papa Gontier', as well as the Bermuda form, as well as against 'Lady Hillingdon'.
The list could be nearly endless, ;-)
If a genetic database could be developed as a reference, over time it could also possibly solve other foundling identities for which there is no clue.
I assume sending leaves to test from Australia to Europe shouldn't be a problem if they aren't intended for propagation, surely?
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The quarantine people would have to weigh in on that. And postage can be pretty slow these days.
More, before I forget again - "Jane Cranston" and Safrano or Isabella Sprunt.
- "William Anderson" / "Peace's Perfect White" and White Maman Cochet.
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#16 of 22 posted
13 DEC 21 by
Johno
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While the prospects are indeed exciting, we may be expecting too much at this stage. We need a known correct plant by which all others will be judged. Provenance is everything if it is accurate. As an example we have Lord Charlemont roses in both WA and SA with very strong provenance. If DNA testing shows them to be identical then we can be fairly confident we have the base plant for all other claimants to be judged. If they don’t match we are no closer to correct identification. The whole issue of found roses and chance seedlings may be too much to expect from DNA testing at this point.
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Yes. We also have a Barcelona with an attached history of the name.
What I'm seeking with the pairs is: are we right in thinking X is a sport of Y? Is the putative Niphetos really different from Mrs Herbert Stevens? etc.
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#11 of 22 posted
13 DEC 21 by
jedmar
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I will discuss this idea with my colleagues in France starting 2022. Discussing this under 'Lord Charlemont' might not be the best way forward. What if we establish a closed Facebook group "DNA testing of Roses" or similar?
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Thank you. I'm not on facebook - I don't trust its security -but ozoldroser is (and maintains the HRIA facebook page).
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#13 of 22 posted
13 DEC 21 by
HubertG
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I don't do Facebook either. Is there any way that a separate heading for this could be created to discuss this on HMF?
Thank you for your efforts, jedmar.
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I don’t do Facebook either.
I’ve opened a Glossary page for DNA thinking we could post there, but no, it appears not. We’ll ask Admin for ideas.
Some internet searching brings up:
Business Queensland website:
Test type Standard client Nursery production business*
Basic $104.60 $51.50
Complex $181.10 $89.20
Specialist The price varies. The exact price will be discussed before testing. Discounts may apply for multiple samples that are run simultaneously. Please contact us for more details.
Specialist tests
Specialist tests can be:
electron microscopic examination for virus particles
molecular techniques including PCR, DNA sequencing and ELISA tests.
These tests generally cost more because they require expensive ingredients and equipment. Sequencing is completed by a third party laboratory.
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Thanks Patricia. That reads like it's intended for nurserymen checking for viruses rather than IDs, but worth enquiring. But too pricey, I think, for the numbers we'd do if cost were no barrier.
Roses can't be a high priority among the world's needs.
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#19 of 22 posted
14 DEC 21 by
petera
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I tried to send this several times before and I think I lost it because it contained a link to a website.
There was a big study using 32 microsatellite markers to genotype 1228, mainly 19th century, roses. The methods are very conventional and straightforward and could be done here quite cheaply. If we used the same markers we could directly compare any of our varieties with those already published as well as compare our disputed varieties with each other.
Liorzou, M.; Pernet, A.; Li, S.; Chastellier, A.; Thouroude, T.; Michel, G.; Malécot, V.; Gaillard, S.; Briée, C.; Foucher, F.; et al. Nineteenth century French rose (Rosa sp.) germplasm shows a shift over time from a European to an Asian genetic background. Journal of Experimental Botany 2016, vol 67, pp4711–4725.
It is open access so you should be able to download it from the journal website otherwise I might be able to upload it to HMF.
The list of varieties is in the supplementary data. There are quite a few that I didn't think existed any more. Maybe they are even correctly identified.
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Petera, do you know whether this sort of test would be able to distinguish between roses with the same given parentage?
Eg Maman Cochet and Auguste Comte; Mr Lincoln, Papa Meilland and Oklahoma etc?
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#21 of 22 posted
15 DEC 21 by
petera
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It depends on the amount of variation at the marker loci. Papa Meilland was in the Liorzou study but not its siblings, and shockingly, Maman Cochet and Auguste Comte were also missing. Typically in this type of study you would test a larger number of markers on a subset of varieties then choose for the main study those which are most useful, i.e. variable and consistently easy to score. If this goes forward then it would be sensible to do a small pilot set to test consistency with the published results and whether that set of markers is sufficient to distinguish closely related varieties. Cultivated roses have the problems of being closely related and highly inbred. There was another large study of modern Indian-bred varieties that tested 48 microsatellite markers and found 31 of them sufficiently variable for the main study of 109 cultivars (Veloru et al. 2020). Unfortunately only two of their markers were also in the set used by Liorzou. A 68,000 marker SNP chip has been developed Koning-Boucoiran et al. (2015) but that is total overkill for this purpose. That technology could quite well distinguish different branches on the same plant due to their accumulation of different somatic mutations.
Veluru, A.; Bhat, K.V.; Raju, D.V.S.; Prasad, K.V.; Tolety, J.; Bharadwaj, C.; Mitra, S.V.A.C.R.; Banyal, N.; Singh, K.P.; Panwar,
S. (2020) Characterization of Indian bred rose cultivars using morphological and molecular markers for conservation and sustainable
management. Physiol. Mol. Biol. Plants 26:95–106.
Koning-Boucoiran CFS; Esselink GD; Vukosavljev M; Westende WPC; Gitonga VW; Krens F; Voprrips RE et al (2015) Using
RNA-Seq to assemble a rose transcriptome with more than 13,000 full-length expressed genes and to develop the WagRhSNP 68 k Axiom SNP array for rose (Rosa L.). Front.
Plant Sci. 6:249.
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Thanks petera - that makes sense.
As Jonno said, there’s a high possibility of misidentified roses among samples but I do hope there’s a way through that minefield.
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Available from - Thomas for Roses, Woodside, South Australia.
no website.
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