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'Penelope' rose Reviews & Comments
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Another reference to the parentage of the Tea rose 'Penelope' appears in The Brisbane Courier, Saturday 28 August 1926, page 5:
"...It is claimed to be a seedling from Madame Lombard; being self-fertilised. Plants of Francis Dubreuil and White Maman Cochet were growing alongside.
Penelope, in its flowers, shows distinct leanings to each of the two last roses, and little at all of Madame Lambard. Madame Lambard is a rose that produces seed freely. The other two varieties seldom produce seed..."
The complete entry has been added to refs.
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Billy, was there any indication of the author of this article?
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It was from a column titled GARDEN NOTES By "HORTILANUS". Should that be added to the ref, and if so, what's the preferred format?
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Consistency and easy reading is what we should be aiming for.
The preferred format is as shown in most of the 'Penelope' references. ie. Author and Subject on the first line, then text. The author is not needed in the case of a book, But in a newspaper or magazine, we should include this detail if known. We are far more likely to take the word of, e.g. Harry Hazlewood, over Mrs. Patricia Smith of Woop Woop. This is rather important in the case of the 'Francis Dubreuil' reference. I would include "Hortilanus" as author. Someone in the future may know who he was.
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#4 of 9 posted
25 JUN 19 by
 HubertG
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I've found an article in The Brisbane Courier newspaper of 21 June 1906, page 6, which confirms from the breeder of 'Penelope', Mr. Williams himself, that this rose is in fact a seedling of 'Mme. Lambard'.
It describes a rather crowded monthly meeting of the Queensland Horticultural Society in which 'Penelope' was exhibited. The meeting was attended by Mr. J.F. Bailey, the director of the Brisbane Botanic Gardens, and Mr. J.H. Maiden, the director of the Sydney Botanic Gardens, who was in that region investigating the pest weed of Water Hyacinth, and who also gave a talk. The relevant passage:
"Among the exhibits - all of which were very beautiful, especially the roses - were a new Rose called "The Penelope," which was exhibited by Mr. John Williams, of Mount Gravatt, and a white begonia, shown by Mr. Patterson, of Toowong. Mr. Williams was not able to attend, but he wrote, explaining the origin of the Rose, and stating that he had sold the right to trade in it outside of Australasia to (Peter Henderson and Co., of New York. The rose, he explained, originated from seed of Madame Lambard.
The seed was grown and harvested by him, while on the same spot close by was a Francis Dubreuil, and White Maman Cochets, and he most carefully noted a combination of the two latter colours, and the same prominent guards carried on the flowers as Dubreuil " The rose," he added, "is a good constitution, and extremely floriferous, being always in flower. The latter quality will make it most valuable, and cause it to be much sought after for forcing in pots for cut bloom in climates a little more vigorous than ours in winter. I trust Penelope will be a good advertisement for Queensland for many years to come, and that it will show we are in no way behind Old England in cultivating the national
flower -'the rose.' " "
So it is quite definitive that it is a seedling of 'Mme. Lambard'. The allusions to 'Francis Dubreuil' and 'White Maman Cochet' as pollen parents is purely speculative. So far I haven't been able to find 'Penelope' in any of the Peter Henderson catalogues. It possibly might not have done well in that New York region and was never released, or possibly it was renamed. I'll keep looking.
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Cuttings may not have survived transport by ship to the East Coast of the USA.
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Thank you HubertG. I have changed the parentage from White Maman Cochet x Mme. Lambard to: Mme. Lambard.
As ‘Penelope’ only grew well in Brisbane, it certainly would not have grown in New York.
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#7 of 9 posted
17 JUL 19 by
HubertG
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It appears too that 'Penelope' very early on produced a sport in 'Miss Rita Petersen' (see the 1908 newspaper reference).
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I love HMF!
Thanks for that HubertG and for all the interesting references you find that deepen and broaden our understanding and our confusion.
I first read the name 'Rita Petersen' or 'Rita Peterson' in the article in the Australian Rose Annual about Editor Stewart going North to Queensland, where he made special mention of seeing his old friend 'General Gallieni' there under the name 'Rita Petersen'. It did not occur to me for a moment that Editor Stewart might have been mistaken and we quoted the Editor with great confidence.
Some years later we were delighted to see that the collection of Heritage Roses at New Farm Park in Brisbane listed 'Rita Petersen' so when visiting for the HRIA conference in 2010, we descended on the garden expecting to see 'General Gallieni'. Well it most certainly wasn't, but we did recognise another old friend - 'Archduke Charles' - or, at least, one of the roses circulated as 'Archiduke Charles' - there have been at least two different roses sold under that name in Australian nurseries.
So did Editor Stewart get it wrong? Was 'General Gallieni' more an acquaintance than a friend and was there only a passing resemblance, or has another rose assumed the name since then?
And now I read that 'Miss Rita Peterson' is her own person - said to be a sport of 'Penelope'.
It's a great reminder to be a little circumspect about everything we read.
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#9 of 9 posted
17 JUL 19 by
HubertG
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You're very welcome, Billy. And I love HMF too!
As you say, at the very least we now know that 'Miss Rita Petersen' is its own legitimately named variety. I'd like to comment more on it but might wait until she receives her own file.
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Thank you so much for adding the 1910 and the two 1911 references Virginia. It is womderful that someone in America can find, AND CONTRIBUTE, these old snippets relating to a Queensland-bred rose. I note 'Souvenir de Therese Levet' has entered the fray in the parentage stakes. Perhaps the Queensland members of Heritage Roses in Australia would enjoy a trip to Charters Towers to peer over fences at old tea roses.
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#1 of 4 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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From "The Leedle Floral Co." (Springfield, Ohio) 1913 catalogue, page 25:
"Penelope (Williams, 1910.)
Colors unique and beautiful; outer petals at times quite blood red, shading paler towards the center which is primrose-yellow. Large and very full, with an appearance of the Maman Cochet type."
It is marked with as asterisk in the index to indicate that it is a new rose.
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This is the first reference of 'Penelope' in America.
I need to enter Leedle as a publication. Can I have an URL for that issue please HubertG - I can't find it.
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#3 of 4 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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Sure, this should get you there.
https://archive.org/details/CAT31293961
The catalogues are interesting because this nursery seems to pride themselves on what they claim are accurate descriptions.
Penelope seems to have disappeared from their list by the 1917 catalogue.
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Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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This delightful piece from the Sydney (Australia) publication, The Farmer and Settler, in late summer, 1914, contains one of the better descriptions of the Tea rose 'Penelope' found to date:
"ORLEANS AND PENELOPE ROSES.
At the present season, when florists' windows are rather depressing by reason of their emptiness, and even the umbrella-shaded stalls along Martin Place are reduced in number and attractiveness for lack of flowers, one cannot help feeling particularly grateful towards those blossoms that brave the heat and the dry weather and come to gladden our hearts. The more our lives are cramped within cities and between houses, and the fewer are our glimpses day by day of green trees and open country, the more keenly we feel the need of flowers. I was cheered, the other morning, to find at least one flower-shop where the window had something other than seed packets and bags of bulb to show me. Here I found refreshing bowls of gay little Orleans roses, their vivid cerise clusters pressed close like the massed cherub faces in pictures. Side by side with these were sonic sprays of 'Penelope' roses. Do you know them? The formation is slight, and the petals curve back with a delicate roll that takes a deeper tinge of color towards the margin. The centre petals of 'Penelope' are of the same rich cream tint as that shown by Maria von Houtte [sic], and, like her, the outer petals and the reverse edges deepen into color. Marie van Houtte never blushes deeper than a delicate pink, but there is a vieux rose, or even a wine color, about the Penelope's petals that make it a very striking blossom. A spray of them, all wet with dew and nestling in dark; glossy leaves, is a sufficiently joyous sight to gladden one for the day."
(added to 'Orleans Rose' and 'Penelope' refs).
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A delightful find indeed!
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Looking closely at the colours mentioned in the old references:
1907-333. Lower half deep reddish crimson. Centre creamy white.
1907-277. Base deep crimson. Centre cream coloured.
1909. Outside petals shading to blackish crimson. Inside bright yellow
1914. Outer and reverse edges deepen into a wine colour. Centre rich cream
1924. Outer petals red. Centre creamy white, colours run.
1929. Lower half dark crimson. Centre is white with a deep red flush on lower side of centre petals.
Perhaps hopeful photographers should be arranging the centre petals (reversed so they are upside down) on a white plate.
Bottoms up for 2016, Billy.
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Most of the plants sold in Australia as Penelope Tea are Hugo Roller (I have also received Mrs Dudley Cross and Safrano under this name, and the Adelaide BG has Penelope Hybrid Musk.) People are continuing to send us cuttings/plants from old sources, and we hope to have a correct one in the Aus. Tea Collection at Ruston's Roses eventually.
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This rose is listed for sale from two places in Australia. Has anyone bought one from either to verify its identity?
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The bush one from H was planted at Renmark last year. The ? climber recently planted at Renmark is from the same source as the one sold by M. Too early to tell yet with either. The one Rumsey's used to sell but gave up on because it didn't thrive outside Queensland, is looking promising at Renmark. The Queenslanders have collected 7 or so from old gardens, for further observation.
Renmark also has a young plant of the one from Boonah.
(Correction: the source of G's is a bush planted near Sydney in the 1970s.)
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Margaret - I am sure we will be able to see many tea roses during the Heritage Rose Conference in Brisbane Oct 4-8. But these seven or so would be of particular interest.
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Yes! I am so glad of the opportunity to see the Queensland roses!
After too many years of terrible drought they've had good rains over the last couple of seasons and I can't wait to see those gardens.
Queensland gardeners kept growing and appreciating Teas long after the other states threw them aside in favour of the more fashionable new roses. In the 1930s and 1940s you see articles by Qld growers re how a lot of the new HTs and Pernetianas didn't do so well there while the Teas love their climate and generally aren't susceptible to black spot.
Re Penelope Tea - in their 1930 catalogue, Hazlewood Bros gave a neat summary of the dilemmas around this rose that obviously still persist today:
"This variety is only kept in its position by the constant demand from Queensland growers. In all other climates it is an unsatisfactory variety and cannot be recommended. There was a novelty from England recently with the same name. Confusion is inevitable unless orders are distinctly marked Tea or Hybrid Musk as the case may be. The colour is cream with the outside petals heavily flushed or totally red at some seasons. The plants are best left unpruned."
"Where Penelope is a failure [Hugo Roller] provides the nearest approach to it in colour. Like many other Teas, it is best pruned very lightly."
The fact that so many alleged 'Penelope' are proving to be 'Hugo Roller' suggests that it was widely substituted right from the beginning.
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