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'Dresden China' rose Reviews & Comments
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Gardeners' Chronicle p. 173
Oct 1, 1921
A.C.B.
New China Roses are not frequently seen at the R.H.S. meetings, nor at the shows of the National Rose Society, so it was somewhat of a surprise that two new varieties of distinct merit were on view at Vincent Square on September 6 and 7 last. Dresden China, which was illustrated in The Gardeners' Chronicle of the following week (Fig. 60), received an Award of Merit. The illustration gives a capital impression of its floriferousness, but it of necessign could give no idea of the charm of its colouring. The delicate blush pink in the centre gradually becomes deeper outwards until at the margin the flower is of a dark cardinal red colour. This rich colour also suffuses the buds and the outer surfaces of the petals. Added to this charm of colouring is that of a delicate fragrance.
Shown by Messrs. Paul and Son
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In the Journal of the RHS for 1922 there is a note that Misters G. Paul of Cheshunt displayed a China Rose 'Dresden China' and that it was "free flowering, sweetly scented ... of moderate size and a pleasing carmine-rose color." This is probably the rose planted by Countess Sophie Beckendorf in the 1920's, later found by Humbphrey Brooke and renamed and reintroduced as "Sophie's Perpetual" in 1960.
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Hello Fred,
The Countess planted them two years later in 1924.
She was Humphrey Brooke's wife's grandmother. See the 1974 reference.
Your reference puts the date back from 1928 to 1922 - at least.
I've never been able to find much on 'Dresden China'.
Quest-Ritson gives a date of c1860.for 'Sophie's Perpetual'
There was another thought that the rose may be 'Sans Epines' 1817.
Patricia
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Humphrey Brooke in the Rose Bulletin (1974 p31) tells the story: "In 1924 Sophie, Countess Benckendorff , my wife's grandmother and the creator of our garden at Lime Kiln, Claydon, Suffolk, planted six specimens of a rose obtained from Paul's nursery under the name 'Dresden China'. Of the four that still survive in full vigour, three have climbed to 20 feet against the house, while the one in an open site has remained a bush of about 3 feet. These roses are usually in bloom on or shortly before May 1 (being invariably the earliest in a collection of over 400 varieties) and continue until the frosts. As a result of one exceptionally mild winter the actual period of flowering covered 13 months. There was then a pause of 6 weeks."
That rose certainly earned its synonym, 'Sophie's Perpetual'!
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Sometimes it is good to read the references. That 1974 reference has been in the file since March, 2011.
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Yes, precisely. I knew of the reference but had not been able to find the original, which, in addition to what had been reported, refers usefully to the length of its flowering season. After all not all roses labelled "perpetual" deserve that description.
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Initial post
3 DEC 11 by
Tessie
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I have a question about the class of Sophie's Perpetual. I read the references section, in particular what is posted from "Volatile Components in Chinese Roses." This excerpt is what I find most intriguing, "...some cultivars...did not emit these components [charactertic of Chinas] and 'Sophie's Perpetual', belonging to the China group, emitted beta-phenylethy alcohol and Nerol which R. damascena Miller also emitted...These cultivars might have no relation to Chinese roses and likely derived from European ancient species such as R. damascena." If that is indeed true, then how can Sophie's Perpetual be a china/bengale? Or even a Bourbon without R. chinensis in it?
Melissa
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Melissa.........
I am far from an expert in matters of classification, but your question is one of the reasons HMF allows for more than one class listing. Some roses do not fit perfectly in one class or another. When I read the other REFERENCES for this rose, that was my first thought.
Since the linage is unknown, determining the one-and-only class the rose should be assigned to could be very tricky, because more than one characteristic determines the classes assigned.
This is certainly a good question and maybe others will be able to provide a better answer.
Smiles,
Lyn
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Humphrey Brooke probably classified it as discoverer. I suspect it was given this classification because of it's excellent repeat flowering, growth habit, possibly the shape of the blossom, and the tendency to blush a bit darker as it ages.
He didn't have the tools we have today to aid in classification.
That said, attempts to classify roses are imperfect at best. Lines are blurred. I think this rose is still difficult to classify, nearly a hundred years later.
We are forced to put them somewhere. Sometimes the fit isn't a very good one. Usually they are lumped into whichever group they superficially resemble.
We could call it a Bourbon, but it has characteristics of a china. Today we might call it a Floribunda.
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I understand it was re-introduced by a local nurseryman, not by Mr Brooke, who knew it had been planted as Paul's 'Dresden China'. See references. BCD says that Paul may have re-labelled 'Sans Epines', which was classed as a China by its breeder in 1817.
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Thanks Margaret, I do remember reading the reference you mention.
The one we grow here is definitely not "Sans Epines".
Perhaps what we grow is not the original?
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Based on the stems and plant architectural traits alone, it definitely has china in it. The question, really, is what else is in it.
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Initial post
28 OCT 08 by
Unregistered Guest
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Available from - Rosenschule - Stange
www.rosen-stange.de
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