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"David's Dilemma" rose Reviews & Comments
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Maybe "David's Dilemma" might be 'Comte de Sembui'?? Compare the 1880 Nietner illustration, there is a resemblance I think, and the descriptions match fairly well too. Just some food for thought for those who grow it.
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It is an excellent suggestion HubertG and I have added it to the main page. There is also a resemblance in the leaves, but the receptacle of ‘Comte de Sembui’ seems to be more elongated. Can someone add a receptacle photo for “David’s Dilemma” this season please.
I have just looked up Comte de Sembui’s descendants to see if it had set hips. There is one and its parents are the two candidates for “David’s Dilemma”.
Eduard von Lade (Comte de Sembui x Socrate)
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Margaret - thank you for your receptacle photo of “David’s Dilemma” added today. A vastly different receptacle to the artists portrayal of ‘Comte de Sembui’ which I think we can now discount.
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#3 of 11 posted
30 NOV 20 by
 HubertG
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I found a 1914 description of the mysteriously obscure 'Louis Tarboreich' from a New Zealand newspaper and thought of "David's Dilemma" but I don't know how mildew-proof "David's Dilemma" is.
"Louis Tarboreich. - Is one of the best of garden roses. The colour is hard to describe, a mingling of rose and cream with a violet shading, is somewhat near the mark. It makes a handsome plant with fine foliage, on which I have never seen mildew even in a bad season. It flowers plentifully and continuously and is first-class for cutting."
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I don't think my "David's Dilemma" is mildew-immune. It can ball and proliferate, so I don't give it to newcomers to heritage roses.
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#5 of 11 posted
2 DEC 20 by
HubertG
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That's good to know that "David's Dilemma" isn't mildew-proof and therefore is unlikely to be 'Louis Tarboreich', especially considering I found an additional reference, this one from Alister Clark himself, listing it among mildew-proof roses.
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It doesn't mildew reliably, like some others i could mention, but definitely isn't mildew-proof.
Is there any particular reason you are not looking at Socrate as an identity HubertG?
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#7 of 11 posted
3 DEC 20 by
HubertG
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Billy, I guess the common descriptions of 'Socrate' being dark pink with apricot centres give me most reservations. That said, the Komlosy Rosen-Album isn't what I'd call dark pink; and I know it's only a drawing but the receptacle depicted there is notably elongated whereas the receptacle on "David's Dilemma" is notably squat. I'm only going by all the descriptions and photos here as I don't grow this rose. It could be 'Socrate' but apart from the peach scent there are too many other factors that don't quite add up, in my opinion.
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Can you get hold of a plant?
It is a most interesting Rose with a very distinctive way of growing.
A lot of variability like most Teas but the habit is consistent.
If you look at the Journal des Roses account of Socrate, the writer has described the habit of growth in uncommon detail and I find this a highly accurate description of “David’s Dilemma’s” growth habit.
The Journal des Roses description also gives a handy check list with which to compare the features depicted in old paintings.
It is not enough for a definite identification of “David’s Dilemma” but there is enough there to keep it on the list of possibilities and nothing to eliminate it.
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#9 of 11 posted
3 DEC 20 by
HubertG
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Billy, I was sent cuttings at one point but they failed to strike. It's a shame that this Australian foundling is available from two overseas nurseries yet from no Australian nursery.
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More and more we're going to be reliant on heritage rose enthusiasts sharing plants. Going back to where it started, I guess. Let me know if you want cuttings of any of mine.
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#11 of 11 posted
3 DEC 20 by
HubertG
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That would be most kind, Margaret, thanks. I'd like very much to experience its scent. I've sent you a pm.
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From a Face Book post by Di Durston concerning David's Dilemma, "Di Durston: David's Dilemma was a John Niewesteeg find and was originally named Fig Tree Rose."
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My information is that Rob Peace found the rose and passed it on to John Nieuwesteeg for propagation and distribution. But I will double check that later in the day. The more active “study name” in Australia has become “David’s Dilemma” (as David couldn’t remember where it came from).
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I have found correspondence from a friend in 2009 as follows:
"John Nieuwesteeg has passed many on to David over the years...... Spoke with John at Ruston weekend in April and he is fairly sure David's Dilemma is one of his foundlings".
I have changed the discoverer from Rob Peace to John Nieuwesteeg. Thank you Kim.
Margaret - this is in conflict with your Note (see main page). Before I delete the Note, do you have other information?
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Thank YOU for pursuing it to its conclusion, Patricia!
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Maybe they found it together.
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Yes - I think that is the case.
Rob and John collected this on one of their many forays into the country around Melbourne. John recognised it as the rose he and Rob had found growing under a fig tree at Canonvale near Yea when he saw it in the HRIA repository of Teas, Chinas and Noisettes at Ruston's Roses.
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No visible hips at present. Mid-autumn, zone 9b.
Socrate is listed as pollen parent for several roses, seed parent for one.
Mrs Campbell Hall has no listed descendants, nor has Reichsgraf E. von Kesselstatt.
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Thanks Margaret. I've added "sets no hips" to the main page as Tea Roses wrote "hip not seen", and there are no photos of hips in this file.
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Hillary Merrifield 2011 Mystery Roses Around the World, p114) mentioned "early plates" of 'Socrate'. It would be good if one or more could be added to HelpMeFind.
The 1909 reference to 'Reichsgraf E. von Kesselstadt' is interesting: "distinctly edged and pencilled with bright pink", although this rose may be too small and semi-double to be considered. However the 1900 illustration shows double blooms.
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