HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'President Wm. R. Smith' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 109-851
most recent 9 AUG 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 8 APR 18 by Margaret Furness
There's been some sloppy editing in the distant past (thanks for the references Patricia);
American Florist - Volume 25 - Page 866 (Dec. 2, 1905): The rose is a cross between Isabella Sprunt and Maman Cochet.
1911, Aug 19. The Garden, p 404 Kaiserin Augusta Victoria x Maman Cochet. Repeated by others.
Hazlewood Bros. Pty. Ltd Website/Catalog (1922) Page(s) 28. Evidently a pale sport from Maman Cochet.

But the breeder's description is very clear: Maman Cochet x Mme Hoste.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 4 posted 8 APR 18 by HubertG
Would the 'American Florist' date of 1905 be correct? W. R. Smith was supposed to be introduced 1907/8.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 4 posted 8 APR 18 by Margaret Furness
"American Florist' 1905 says "it has been under trial as a forcing rose for some years". "Horticulturalist" of 1905 also describes the event at which the rose was formally named.
Presumably it was bred quite a while before its official release.
REPLY
Reply #3 of 4 posted 4 AUG 18 by HubertG
I found this very interesting. From the 1910 catalogue of G.H. Peterson "A Little Book About Roses":

"WM. R. SMITH (very vigorous). Shellem 1907.
Our own country has at last achieved the honor of producing one of the very greatest - if not the greatest - of all outdoor blooming roses. The general color effect is blush, gradually assuming a yellowish tint after being cut a day or two. The buds are exquisitely moulded (see cut on last cover page), opening to a very full and perfect flower. The stems are long, with superb foliage, absolutely disease proof. The new growths are rich reddish, the foliage and wood changing to glossy green at maturity, with red thorns. Each strong growth usually produces four buds, three at the terminal and one lower down; all but the center terminal one should be pinched off. The vigor and constitution of this rose is simply marvelous. Has withstood several northern winters without protection. "Jeannette Heller" is this rose, and has no right to that name. Disinterested authorities claim that "Charles Dingee" is also this rose, but I have not yet flowered that variety. Knowing the interest and discussion this rose is bound to arouse, I personally spent several days in travel tracing it from the time it was named at a Philadelphia dinner party in honor of the head of the U. S. floral department at Washington back to the sowing of the seed in 1898 by an obscure florist, Richard Bagg, then at Bridgeton, N. J. I have known this rose, which is a seedling from Maman Cochet and Mad. Hoste, since the summer of 1905. (On own roots). 60c.; extra selected, 75c."


I've uploaded the photo on the back cover mentioned in the text above.

This description appears much the same in Peterson's catalogues in different years but with minor additions and alterations, which I'll add here one by one.
REPLY
Reply #4 of 4 posted 9 AUG 18 by Patricia Routley
I've added the 1910 reference. Thanks HubertG.
REPLY
Discussion id : 109-727
most recent 1 APR 18 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 31 MAR 18 by hebe
I have two WRS, and both behave more like climbers than shrubs. They have three or four canes (one 3yo and one 2yo), and shoot up to 10' in no time. The blooms open here, unlike Maman Cochet's (humid and warm Sydney), and are stunning. Occasionally they brown and ball, as in Patricia Routley's photos, but not often enough to stop me growing this rose. The fragrance is strong for a Tea, sweet and spicy.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 6 posted 1 APR 18 by HubertG
Hebe, may I ask from where you purchased your William R Smiths? I'm in Sydney too and would like to get this rose from the same nursery.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 6 posted 1 APR 18 by hebe
Hi Hubert, I'm not going to be of much help as I got both of mine from Misty Downs, who no longer sell roses. One was called Amelia Anderson, and the other was called Dr Grill - apparently a common misnomer.
I have had roses from Ross Roses, and was pretty disappointed with what they sent me. They list Dr Grill - but who knows what it is?! I am getting some from Thomas for Roses this year, for the first time. I will gladly send you some cuttings from mine, if you would like, as I have to move one this winter anyway.
REPLY
Reply #3 of 6 posted 1 APR 18 by HubertG
Hi Hebe, thanks. That's a pity that it was Mistydown's. Are your 'Dr Grill' and 'Amelia Anderson' exactly the same? I'm told most Dr Grills sold in Australia are apparently W R Smith, but my Dr Grill (lots of photos posted) just doesn't look the same as your rose or some of the other American W R Smith photos which look identical to your rose. Maybe some time have a look at the photos of my Dr Grill and please let me know if you think your W R Smith/Dr Grill looks the same.
I was hoping to get your W R Smith to compare to my Dr Grill in real life.

Does your rose set hips? Mine does. My Dr Grill fragrance isn't strong or sweet, more grassy/hay, so it doesn't sound like your scent.
REPLY
Reply #4 of 6 posted 1 APR 18 by HubertG
I forgot to add that I'll gladly take you up on your kind offer of cuttings. Many thanks!!
REPLY
Reply #5 of 6 posted 1 APR 18 by hebe
Hi Hubert, yes, my WRS and DR Grill look the same. I had a look at your photos, and they do look different. I dead head mine, so it hasn't had a chance to set hips.
REPLY
Reply #6 of 6 posted 1 APR 18 by HubertG
Thanks, I just couldn't bring myself to think that they were the same either. I'm not sure if it is the real Dr Grill or not, but it just doesn't look like W R Smith/Amelia Anderson. Thanks for the prompt feedback!
REPLY
Discussion id : 108-707
most recent 10 MAR 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 23 FEB 18 by Patricia Routley
Checking first with other growers. I would like to add a Note to the 'William R. Smith' page to the effect that it sets no hips. I have never noted a hip on my bushes and nearly all of my blooms end up perfect for dried flower arrangements [!] I have added the Tea Roses. Old Roses For Warm Gardens reference which notes "no hip seen".
REPLY
Reply #1 of 5 posted 24 FEB 18 by Margaret Furness
No hips as such on mine at present. I'll keep watching the current batch of spent blooms.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 5 posted 26 FEB 18 by billy teabag
I'll do the same.
REPLY
Reply #3 of 5 posted 9 MAR 18 by HubertG
There is only one descendant of William R Smith listed here (and that was where WRS was used as the pollen parent). I haven't grown this rose, so I don't know if it produces hips or not from experience, but one would assume that if such an esteemed and beautiful rose were fertile, it would have been pounced on by the breeders at the time to be used to produce offspring. It was most probably infertile but I'm only speculating.
REPLY
Reply #4 of 5 posted 9 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
And I'll betcha two bob to a pinch of salt that the long-gone descendant, 'Mrs. R. M. King' (Mme. Abel Chatenay x William R Smith) was, in fact, a self pollinated 'Mme. Abel Chatenay'. The only real reference, 1931, says "too much like Abel Chatenay". We will never know, of course, but it gives credence to your speculation that William R. Smith is sterile
REPLY
Reply #5 of 5 posted 10 MAR 18 by HubertG
Patricia, I was thinking exactly the same thing when I posted that above.
I imagine W R Smith takes after its mother Maman Cochet in the fertility department.

Incidentally, I have a hip on my White Maman Cochet and I have never seen this before. I left it to develop but it has partially split so I'm expecting it to rot, but you can see developing seeds inside.
REPLY
Discussion id : 108-906
most recent 1 MAR 18 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 1 MAR 18 by HubertG
I found this description for William R. Smith online from an American 1917 Ella V Baines (florist) catalogue.
"WM. R. SMITH — This Rose has several names,
such as Charles Dingee, Jeanette Heller,
Maiden's Blush, etc. Color delicate blush. It
has no superior as a garden Rose."

There are also other descriptions for 11 other roses including an interesting one for Helen Good (a sport of Maman Cochet).
REPLY
© 2025 HelpMeFind.com