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'Red Maman Cochet' rose Reviews & Comments
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I find zero references to 'Niles Cochet' before its offering by the California Nursery Company of Niles, California, in 1911. References to 'Niles Cochet' as if dating back to 1906 appear to result from confusion with 'Helen Gould', which was referred to for a time as the 'Red Cochet' or 'Red Maman Cochet'. For instance, a ‘Red Maman Cochet’ is listed in a 1906 advertisement—with ‘Pink Maman Cochet’, ‘Yellow Maman Cochet’, and ‘White Maman Cochet’ and many other roses—as a premium available to subscribers to The Epitomist, with the roses all supplied by Good & Reese; but at that time it was a synonym for ‘Helen Gould’, as specifically stated in the Good & Reese catalog for 1906 (p. 20). Good and Reese indeed seem to acknowledge this when, more than two decades later, they call 'Niles Cochet' "the TRUE Red Cochet" (my emphasis) in their 1929 catalog.
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#1 of 4 posted
14 JUL by
 HubertG
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It seems that 1911 was the year that the California Nursery Co. changed this rose's name to 'Niles Cochet' for it appears in their 1910 catalogue, and prior to that, as 'Red Maman Cochet'. It's also clear that it wasn't 'Balduin'/'Helen Gould' as this rose is also listed in the HT section. They record the introduction date of 'Niles Cochet' as 1906 in their 1915 catalogue, as well as confirming it "was sold for a few seasons under name of Red Maman Cochet, but was thought deserving of a more distinctive title, as it is not, strictly speaking, a red rose".
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From the references to Auguste Comte, from the HRIA Journal of 2021,43.4, p. 33, in an article by Lynne Chapman and Billy West:
"Many of you use the resources of the HelpMeFind website and here we encountered this rose as a foundling in Sardinia and also, to our surprise, discovered that it could be purchased under four different names in Europe: in Italy as Mme Scipion Cochet, and as Castello della Scala (a reintroduced rose); as Maman Cochet in the UK, and in France under the name Auguste Comte. It is also in the USA as we have seen it as one of the roses under the name Niles Cochet."
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Interesting--thanks!
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#4 of 4 posted
16 JUL by
HubertG
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Margaret, very interesting about the rose sold in Italy as 'Mme. Scipion Cochet' matching 'Niles Cochet' in the US, as I just came across an American catalogue reference from 1925 which seems to erroneously synonymise these two roses.
From the Elmer Bros. (San José, California) "Rose Souvenir Catalog" (page unnumbered):
"Madam S'Cipo Cochet; Niles Cochet or Red Maman Cochet (California Nursery Co., 1906) (T.) Cherry red on outer petals, lighter within. A sport from the popular Maman Cochet and a far better rose. The flowers are just a trifle smaller, stems are better, carrying flowers fairly well. It is a remarkably free bloomer, particularly in the Fall, at the very time when its color is at its best. Succeeds splendidly as a “standard” as well as in bush form; a strong grower."
Clearly "S'Cipo" is some sort of misreading of Scipion. However if 'Niles Cochet' had been imported to Italy from this grower in the 1920s (and it is an American rose after all) it gives weight to the argument that the 'Mme. Scipion Cochet' found in Italy is really 'Niles Cochet'.
It's the only reference I've seen so far for 'Niles Cochet' also being called 'Mme Scipion Cochet' - maybe it was a frequent error, but I don't know yet.
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Actually, now I find 'Red Maman Cochet'--the later 'Niles Cochet'--listed by the California Nursery Company in their 1905 catalog (p. 78); they themselves are thus a year off when they state in 1915 that its introduction was in 1906. Their 1904 catalog does not list it.
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Presumably, the folks at CA Nursery Co. watched their sport for at least a year or two to see if it was stable. The 1905 listing probably was the earliest listing of the sport, and they were wrong to say it was introduced in 1906.
If the 1905 offering was the rose later renamed 'Niles Cochet', perhaps it was a 'soft launch' of sorts...the nursery only had a limited quantity of plants, but didn't anticipate huge demand. To 21st century catalog readers, the 1905 listing looks like the 1906 listing, but was there some sort of hoop-de-doo that went on at the nursery proper in 1906 that they thought of as the actual introduction?
I also wonder if people ordering 'Red Maman Cochet' before the name change thought they were ordering 'Balduin' AKA 'Helen Gould', and if the confusion is what finally prompted the name change?
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#2 of 3 posted
16 JUL by
HubertG
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To be fair to the California Nursery Co. their "1905" catalogue is technically their "1905-1906" catalogue and the preface remarks in it are dated 1st November 1905, so perhaps 'Red Maman Cochet' wasn't sent out before 1906.
It's interesting to note that (presumably the same) 'Red Maman Cochet' also appeared in the 'Portland Seed Co's 1905-1906 Catalogue of Shade and Ornamental Trees, Shrubs, Roses, Vines, etc.' on page 21 under "New Roses - Roses of Special Merit" as follows:
"RED MAMAN COCHET.—
This is a sport from the Pink Maman Cochet, propagated by one of our rose growers. It is like the grand and popular White and Pink Cochets in everything except the color, which is an intensely bright cerise, or rose. Stock limited. Price, 75c each."
They make it clear that it was a sport of 'Maman Cochet' and that stock was limited. Perhaps the two nurseries were affiliated?
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It looks as if their limited stock was not refreshed..within a few years, they no longer listed it. Because Maman Cochet did/does sport more than many roses, and because the description didn't follow that of CA Nursery Company, I'm inclined to think it was a different rose
They may have dropped it because it wasn't stable, or because it was inferior to another, similar sport, or they may not have dropped it, but realized a better name was needed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Can someone please let me know whether this rose is virtually prickle free or more like Maman Cochet
Thanks
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like 'Maman Cochet'
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Many Thanks.
This clears up some problems for me. about 12 years ago I imported Niles Cochet from a nursery in the USA to Europe. After a few years I couldn't tell the difference between this and Auguste Comte as much as I tried. In the mean time I've been trying to Identify "Bryan Freidel", a found rose from your southern states, it has a strong affinity to Maman Cochet but isn't the quite same, personally I find it a better rose. This now opens the possibility that the found rose is Niles Cochet
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I grew 'Niles Cochet' from Tom Liggett who was associated with San Jose Heritage. Prickles were much the same as others in the Cochet group. As you know, there are many in the trade now going under assumed names. I'm glad you're taking the time to try to sort things out.
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Initial post
13 FEB 06 by
Unregistered Guest
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'Aunt Jane's Mystery' was named in error by me (great nephew of "Aunt Jane") in 1995. The rose is actually the Old Tea, 'Niles Cochet.'
PC.
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