HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Initial post
15 MAR 10 by
Don H
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The July 8, 1956 edition of The Saint Petersburg Times reported that the parentage of Sterling Silver was "a cross between the well known hybrid tea rose, Peace, and a grey blue-lavender rose called Morning Mist".
news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19560708&id=n9ANAAAAIBAJ&sjid=M3YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5601,3780064
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#1 of 7 posted
15 MAR 10 by
 jedmar
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#2 of 7 posted
15 MAR 10 by
Don H
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Thanks. Maybe you could add it to the lineage for Sterling Silver?
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#3 of 7 posted
16 MAR 10 by
jedmar
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The patent for Sterling Silver states ""The male parent was the variety Peace and an unnamed seedling as the female parent - the latter coming from a strain similar to Morning Mist." Therefore, the seed parent is NOT Morning Mist, but a related seedling." So, while Peace was involved, the other parent was, per the breeder's official claim, a possibly related seedling to Morning Mist, instead of Morning Mist itself.
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#6 of 7 posted
17 JAN 12 by
Don H
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Gladys FIsher's patent for Morning Mist says it was "a self pollinated seedling from one of my own unnamed seedlings" adding to murkiness.
Others have expressed doubts about the male parentage of Sterling Silver as well, pointing out to Peace as being a convenient sire for marketing purposes.
Perhaps the answers lay in the Conard Pyle archives at the University of Delaware. Those were the days of paper correspondence so there is a good chance of finding letters from Gladys.
www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/findaids/conard.htm
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#7 of 7 posted
20 APR 20 by
1
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My personal opinion is that it is a seedling of Peace.
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.122337
You can see Peace-like new growth in that photo, but also S.Silver has broader petals and decent form, which was rather difficult to get from most lineages at that time without using Peace. Also, Peace provides color disambiguation that silvery mauve often requires to be present.
The other half is obviously the mystery meat. I think its from an early pelargonidin types for several reasons. First, its a shorter rose than most HT. This happened in many early HT (Ophelia types, for example), but not as commonly during the 50s. Although this can be partially blamed on weak vigor due to selection bias of a rare color, it seems unlikely in this case, because the internode relativity seems to contradict such an idea. So it was probably both short and weak, rather than simply weak. I believed a dwarf variety is the culprit, such as those found in many early floribundas carrying pelargonidin. Second, the timing is perfect for the when such unusual silvery mauve colors were truly possible from these early pelargonidin types. Orangeade, as an example, has an extensive history with silvery mauves. 'Lavender Delight' is a prime example. Orange Sweetheart, for example, was introduced during the timeline when Morning Mist (a possible relation or sister) was being conceived. Last, to me it looks like the parentage of Morning Mist was deliberately concealed to hide the rose responsible for the color shift, only offering the idea that it was bred from roses that could typically make a florist rose at the time. Yet, the petal count and flower size is more like that of an early flori or flori hybrid.
If I had to guess, I would guess 'Fashion' was involved. I would guess a red florist rose derived from the roses she had listed and Fashion, and that the result was an odd-toned darker mauve.
I would also hazard a guess that 'Morning Mist' is a self of this unknown seedling, and that when she realized the outdoor vigor was even worse than the florist rose it was bred from, she crossed it with 'Peace' and got a silvery, better formed rendition.
Well, anyway, thats my best guess with how much little information is available.
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Thanks, Michael. That is a very interesting and plausible supposition.
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Initial post
16 APR 09 by
maele
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Love, love, love it! So far it's doing well in it's first southern california spring that's been a little colder than usual. Still waiting to see what it does in the HOT summer ahead, but will post an update. Blooms like crazy, and no blooms fell off in yesterday's high winds. Beautiful ruffled edges, worth it for that feature alone. Also, no signs of disease. Colors are muted but pretty, open up russettish, fade to salmon pinkish/lavender when spent.
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This is a nice, healthy rose that blooms freely and well. I just can't stand the color. It must be a personal quirk, but the color is very unsettled, harsh and doesn't combine well with other colors in the garden.
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Jeff, you got further than I did. I couldn't bring myself to purchase CdM.
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#3 of 21 posted
11 MAY 09 by
Don H
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There is a bed of Cinco de Mayo at Elizabeth Park in Hartford. I have to say that the photos at HMF don't really capture its appearance in a bed, or even the flowers - the blooms have much more yellow in them here. It's a hugely floriferous plant, as well.
That said, the foliage and especially the canes detract from it, being very rustic looking and quite prickly. It is not high on my list as a breeder but I do think it would be worth exploring and may give it some attention this year as a pollen parent. I have a couple of OP seedlings going of it as well.
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I didn't buy CDM to put in my garden. NO way would the color work anywhere. I bought three plants for a neighbor and she's thrilled with them. She likes anything bright and gaudy, and in her garden it seems to look O.K. CDM does flower like a trooper, though the growth is a bit uneven -- some short and some tall canes, so you don't get a very rounded bush without some heavy-handed pruning.
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You know, I knew that the color of CDM reminded me of something, and yesterday the penny dropped. The color reminds me of when someone's mother used to mix grape Kool-Aid with Hawaiian Punch and serve it at a kids party. It tasted strange, too!
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#5 of 21 posted
15 MAY 09 by
Linette
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We purchased the Cinco de Mayo and what a disappointment. It's a healthy plant and blooms frequently, however the color is awful and not as pictured at all. I thought the more it bloomed and became established, that the color would be truer to the picture but I think it has settled on a Coral with some blooms containing yellow streaks. I purchased this rose specifically for a corner that had been without for years (waiting on the right one) and I thought I had found the one with Cinco de Mayo. The blooms do not last long and the only positive I can find is the foliage color. This is one rose that I will be removing once I find a better one to add. I have never felt this way about a plant and much more a rose. I learn to live with the sometimes "not as pictured" roses but this rose is so different in color, it would almost be easier to believe they packaged the wrong plant in error. I only see the purple hues when the flower has died (so dead the petals are dry).
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Thank you for the info. that blooms don't last long.
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Wow I'm shocked with everyone disliking the color. I find it to be too beautiful for words! There is no way to photograph it and capture its nuances and color variations. I guess to each his own. I do wonder though if location makes a difference. Some roses look like completely different roses if viewed across the states and globe. I've mixed mine with a lavender pink rose and two very deep red roses. The combo is divine!
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#9 of 21 posted
4 JUN 09 by
maele
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The color does change a LOT, but I find the foliage really pretty. Even though it does match absolutely nothing, I am planning to put it with lavender perennials, a red japanese maple that is a dark maroon, and maybe small red roses. For me the second bloom cycle had a few dark orange flowers, but my friend's plant did turn very gaudy as some of you mentioned. Hers is from Star and mine is from Weeks, but I don't know if it makes a difference.
Now mine seems to have settled into a beautiful muted russet color, and it blooms all the time. I agree with everyone that this is a strange looking plant, but I still like it. One cool thing is that the color can pull together other random colors in a vase of cut roses, since it has a little bit of everything.
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I can see 'Distant Drums' as a good companion rose! Just thought of this combo!
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"Yikes", lol, I had the same reaction!
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#18 of 21 posted
25 NOV 09 by
1
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Robert, you have no taste :P
I actually like this rose. It has a nice bushy habit. The color is very Fall-like here in Oregon. It is very rustic. It actually has a strong Pacific NW feel to it. My main complaint of it is that I feel it should be stronger smelling for what it is. I wish Distant Drums had a more natural bush like CdM does, and I wish CdM had a more memorable scent like DD does, lol.
At any rate, I would recommend this rose for rounding out any angular corners in the garden --especially those corners that need a smooth, dark touch to it -- not something punctual or attention seeking.
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Vive la difference! ;-)
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#20 of 21 posted
25 NOV 09 by
1
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C'mon guys! Are ya color blind? ;) I just thought with Distant Drums being peach pink and purple it would echo a paler version of Cinco de Mayo. Now stop making fun of my color sense - I do have a Master of Fine Arts in Painting after all - whadyo got? ;)
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Degrees in horticulture. ;-)
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Now add Victoriana, and you'll have the full catastrophe.
(My degree is in radiology - black & white stuff.)
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Degree in horticulture and strong opinions. That's all. And in NO way do I mean to demean anyone's color sense. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I believe that completely. CDM has merits that I cannot appreciate, but you do. Thank God we're not all alike!
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Initial post
23 JUN 08 by
Don H
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According to the Thomas Jefferson Foundation it was William Prince and his son William Rogers Prince of Flushing, New York who hybridized Baltimore Belle. See
http://www.twinleaf.org/pdfs/2004/nursery.pdf
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#1 of 2 posted
13 FEB 19 by
StefanDC
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The link included in the original post seems to be broken now, but anyone interested can currently still find the document here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051218232954/http://www.twinleaf.org:80/pdfs/2004/nursery.pdf
However, it does not suggest that 'Baltimore Belle' was hybridized by Prince, which would be entirely at odds with the long written history that firmly credits Samuel Feast as its originator. The only mention of this cultivar in the article states, "He [Prince] paid special attention to hybrids of the prairie rose, Rosa setigera, the most celebrated being the magnificent 'Baltimore Belle'."
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#2 of 2 posted
13 FEB 19 by
Don H
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Good catch, Stefan, thanks.
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Initial post
16 OCT 09 by
Don H
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The July 8, 1956 edition of The Saint Petersburg Times reported that the parentage of Sterling Silver was "a cross between the well known hybrid tea rose, Peace, and a grey blue-lavender rose called Morning Mist".
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19560708&id=n9ANAAAAIBAJ&sjid=M3YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5601,3780064
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Great information Don!
I thought 'Morning Mist' by Fisher might still be offered for sale, but when you go to the Brentwood Bay Nursery Website, it says they offer the Austin rose by the same name.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=38003
Apparently the Fisher version is out of commerce.
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#2 of 12 posted
16 OCT 09 by
Don H
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Morning Mist is a dead end as far as the lineage goes. Gladys listed it as a selfling of one of her other hybrids which she didn't name.
The roses that are listed in Gladys Fisher's patents are
Peace - patent 591, as female
Rapture - unpatented,as female
Rome Glory - patent 304,as male
Happiness - patent 911, as female
New Yorker - patent 823, as male
Golden Anniversary - patent 806, probably as female
Masquerade - patent 975, probably as male
Mission Bells - patent 923 as male
Talisman - unpatented, as female
R. M. S. Queen Mary - patent 249 as male
Rome Glory - unpatented, as female
Better Times - patent 23 as male
Orange Nassau - patent 350, as male
Floradora - unpatented as female
Fashion - patent 789 as male
Of these, Rapture is the only one that is a greenhouse rose and which looks to me like it might otherwise fit the bill as being grandparent to SS.
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Fascinating.
I would have bet money 'Grey Pearl' was lurking somewhere in the lineage of SS.
Mrs. Fisher must have been very pleasantly surprised when SS popped up.
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#4 of 12 posted
27 FEB 10 by
Unregistered Guest
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hmmm.....I actually read an article somewhere.....in fact it was from a book about rose names, and it talked about gray pearl as being one of the parents of sterling silver. I think that lineage would make a lot of sense because gray pearl is a very weak rose and sterling silver is not a particularly good grower from a whole variety of reports. Mine grows reasonably well and is healthy. Go figure. I live in pennsylvania. Maybe my climate is well suited for it.
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#5 of 12 posted
16 MAR 10 by
Don H
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Robert, it turns out that Morning Mist never made it to the marketplace. See
news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19560530&id=rmgsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YMsEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2951,3561950
I think you are correct about Grey Pearl lurking behind Sterling Silver. My guess (yet again) is that Morning Mist was an OP seedling of Lavender Pinocchio. The timing was right, and you've pointed out elsewhere the ability of Lavender Pinocchio to pass along fragrance.
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Fascinating. I bet you're right.
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The 1956 article said she'd not introduced it, however a bed of a lavender HT named Morning Mist grew at Rose Hills Memorial Park Rose Garden in Whittier, Ca until the late 1980s. I was permitted to take cuttings there several times and Morning Mist and Dennison Morey's Mountain Haze were two I tried to propagate and failed. They grew there until the rose gardens were removed and replaced with the Rose Hills Rose Trials.
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#9 of 12 posted
17 JAN 12 by
Don H
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Wow. Any chance you took photos of Morning Mist?
I do hope somebody in a suitable climate preserves VID Sterling Silver after Vintage closes.
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Hi Don, unfortunately, I don't think so. I don't remember photographing it and when permitted to make a cutting run, I would have been armed with a specific list of material to gather and the supplies necessary to accomplish it. The garden was nearly seventy miles from home and rush hour traffic as well as time to process the material were taken into consideration. I most often didn't carry my camera with me for fear of dropping or otherwise damaging or losing it. Those times, I was on a "mission"! The more I dig into this, the more I'm beginning to wonder if what we have ISN'T Sterling Silver, but perhaps Morning Mist? Weak plant, too few petals, etc. You know how easily things are mistaken and confused in the trade. And, you've probably experienced any lavender rose being responded to as "LOOK at the Sterling Silvers!"
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#11 of 12 posted
11 JUN 13 by
Benaminh
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Don, University of California Davis Foundation Plant Services has an extensive VID list and is offering virus indexed Sterling Silver cuttings and budwood:
http://fpms.ucdavis.edu/rose.html
As of 07/10/13, listed under "Custom Services," they charge about USD $2,000 to clean any rose variety of virus, but require three plants and two years' time.
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#7 of 12 posted
16 MAR 10 by
Unregistered Guest
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Greast post Don! We should get someone to update that info. BTW, I found the book that said Grey Pearl was a parent. It's called: A Rose by Any Name: The Little-Known Lore and Deep-Rooted History of Rose Names
by Douglas Brenner and Stephen Scanniello.
I think your reference is much more reliable and accurate so I say we should definitely get that officially listed. (Nevermind, it already is.)
:) Thanks. Getting the lineage for this one is actually kind of a big deal, as almost all of the lavenders are derived from this plant it seems.
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#12 of 12 posted
30 APR 17 by
1
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I don't really doubt the Peace heritage. Or the Grey Pearl heritage. But I almost want to say Sterling Silver is 1/4 floribunda, which makes me wonder about Fashion. An example: Peace x (Grey Pearl x Fashion).
By the way, here is the link to the passage mentioned:
books.google.com/books?id=anq6v1LekNIC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=A+Rose+by+Any+Name:+The+Little-Known+Lore+and+Deep-Rooted+History+of+Rose+Names&source=bl&ots=uifWgQ-jh4&sig=UmI6I4Y92OqTcOuWXv1FUoDoF6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwie1vHjl83TAhVL5GMKHclwAmsQ6AEIUzAJ#v=onepage&q=sterling%20silver&f=false
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