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Any suggestions on ID? The parent plant is tall and healthy; my young cutting-grown potted plant is tall. Pacifier, who collected the cuttings from a Melbourne suburb Braybrook, says the colour is very temperature-dependent, and the scent is like rose soap. He thinks it is a 1950s or '60s Peace type, possibly French.
The first flower on my plant is about 12cm across, about the same size as Peace.
It has pink/red stamens. Sorry the reverse photo is out of focus. Photos taken in South Australia, zone 9, summer.
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Are you thinking this is a 'Peace' sport or seedling? "Peace' and the sports I have seen have a characteristic puckering along the midribs of their leaflets. I could not see that at all on photo#1, but there might have been some on photo # 4.
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As you say, the leaves aren't right for a Peace sport. Could be a descendant.
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#3 of 7 posted
8 JAN by
 HubertG
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Might it be 'Confidence'?
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Good suggestion. I'll ask Pacifier. Patricia grows Confidence and may like to comment.
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I think the suggestion of Confidence might be correct. The comments in the reference section seem to match well with this rose. If correct as Confidence, my initial suspicions were pretty close to the mark if I say so myself!
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I was under the impression that ‘Peace’ had dark green leaves - and “Braybrook” has light green leaves.
I have added a 2007 and a 2009 photo of my ‘Confidence’ but the plant, on its own roots has not done well here.
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The old leaves on my "Braybrook", not that there are many, are darker than the leaves in my photos.
I'm less certain about the references that suggest a paler reverse to the petals.
However the petals do show a faint striping like those in Patricia's photo.
Can someone who grows Confidence please comment on the stamen colour?
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Collected by John Nieuwesteeg and named for the family who grew it.
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Thank you Margaret.
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#2 of 5 posted
4 NOV 18 by
HubertG
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How regularly does this repeat? It does look more HT than anything else. It actually reminds me a bit of the early illustrations of 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam'.
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The expert nurseryman who collected it says it's Portland. I can't answer re repeat but will keep watching it.
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#4 of 5 posted
21 JAN 23 by
Pacifier
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I'm of the opinion it's likely the 1867 Baroness Rothschild (Pernet).
It keys out well with the references. George Arends is famously thornless so def not that. Lady Mary Fitzwilliam is very much in the classic HT style (unless you have Mrs Wakefield Christie Miller which was widely sold as Lady Mary).
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#5 of 5 posted
2 FEB 23 by
petera
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I don't currently have Baroness Rothschild to compare it with but my memory is that BR has conventional Damask style leaves, is much pricklier, and doesn't have the knobby, jointed stems. The short pedicels, flower form and total lack of fragrance are similar although S is a messier flower. From looking at the pictures on HMF the receptacle is constricted below the sepals in BR but not in S. There is a good picture of BR on HMF posted by Feva back in June 2012 to compare with my Shalice pictures.
The leaves of Shalice are very distinct; it is smooth, thin and papery, and in the spring the new foliage has a strong, silvery, metallic sheen that is not evident later in the season.
It doesn't at all resemble the plant I used have as Georg Arends. That was much like its supposed parent La France with thin stems and higher-centred flowers with a powerful perfume.
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Initial post
23 JAN 12 by
jedmar
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Both 'Park's Yellow' and 'Bengale jaune souffré' were apparently larger (4-5 in.), also the sepals were much longer than the bud. It would be interesting to see photos of foliage, prickles, etc of your foundling. In any case, a very pretty rose!
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The sepals seem to be variable. Photos at Ruston's, zone 10a, transferred to new page.
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I have opened a file for this foundling and called it "Molesworth Yellow China", to distinguish it in our minds from the "Molesworth Yellow Tea" (Mrs. A. R. Waddell). Can Pacifier and Margaret move their photos to this file. I'll add more details to the file this afternoon.
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Was 'Mrs A R Waddell' ever called the "Molesworth Yellow Tea"? I thought it was just the "Molesworth Tea", and that name has been abandoned since it's been identified and it wasn't a Tea.
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You are right Margaret. The 'Mrs. A. R. Waddell' was just called "Molesworth Tea".
The china has long been referred to as "Molesworth Yellow China".
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#5 of 5 posted
24 JAN 12 by
Pacifier
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I think almost any rose of that period would be extraordinary at 4-5 inches. There are few contemporary descriptions of this rose. I have only the one from Redouté which doesn't mention the size of the flower, just the bush; "tiges de vingt à trente pouces". I've always assumed it to be similar in size to the other 3 early Chinas. I'll try to photograph my photocopy of Indica Sulfurea from Redouté and post it. I'd be very interested to see other sources of information on this rose. Could you post some? Thanks.
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I have an archive photo of this image from Redouté, 3rd edition. I would say the yellow depicted here is much more intense. The colour is less bright in my print, more a deep cream or light lemon yellow. The French name in Redouté is 'Bengale Jaune-Soufre' -(vulgairment Thé Jaune) and the yellow tone is always qualified, suggesting to me the rose was 'aspirationally' yellow rather than strongly yellow.
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