HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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HubertG 
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Would someone who grows "Kombacy Marianne" please comment on whether they have ever seen hips on it.
I note that Mme De Watteville has three descendants, as seed parent.
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#1 of 14 posted
3 DEC 21 by
HubertG
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I've only had my cutting-grown plant for a short time and it's still in a pot but I was very curious to know whether it would set hips and so have looked carefully for stigma and stamen etc in most of its flowers. Generally they weren't formed but in one flower there were several normal-looking stigma and I pollinated them using pollen at hand. It seemed to take and swell quite quickly as if a normal hip would develop, but unfortunately recent wet weather caused it to start browning and it rotted off. In my limited experience, my speculation is that hips won't set naturally very often but it's quite possible that careful artificial fertilisation might produce some hips. I'd be curious to know others' experience too.
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I don’t think I have ever seen a hip, but can’t guarantee that. I like to deadhead this plant and will tie a bit of ribbon to it to alert me to watch for anything.
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Thank you.
Mme de Watteville also has a descendant listed, as pollen parent.
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#4 of 14 posted
5 AUG by
HubertG
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I noticed that my winter flowers this year had relatively normal looking stigma and there seems to be a hip developing on one at the moment, I'd say about two months old and it's rather oval-shaped.
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For the next edition of the Mystery Roses booklet (which will only be on-line), I'm asking those who grow any of them to let me know if they're seed-fertile. I don't know whether a hip set in winter will ever ripen. Anyway, if the hip looks like it will persist, I'd love a photo of it, please.
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#6 of 14 posted
8 AUG by
HubertG
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Margaret, here's the hip on my plant. It isn't large; just 13mm across and about 20mm long. I suspect that there is a seed or two in there otherwise it would not have remained on the plant, which is still a young cutting-grown plant in a pot. If it ripens or falls off I'll let you know what it contains. Please feel free to use the photo, Margaret, if you think it's worthwhile.
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Thank you! I'll be interested to see if anything comes of it.
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You are a hip-whisperer HubertG! I have checked thousands of spent blooms on our plant over the years and have yet to find anything that didn't dry up and drop off. Yours look promising.
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#9 of 14 posted
12 AUG by
jedmar
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Reassigned your two hip photos to "Kombacy Marianne"
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#10 of 14 posted
12 AUG by
HubertG
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Thank you billy teabag and jedmar. Nothing may come of the hip but the fact that it has stayed on for this long is encouraging. I noticed yesterday on my plant five new shoots growing from the abscission layer from where an old flower stem fell off. I did think it was interesting enough to post a photo of it, so I'll try to do that tomorrow.
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Did you get any seeds from the hip?
Margaret
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#12 of 14 posted
2 days ago by
HubertG
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Margaret, sorry I forgot to follow up on this. In short, no, there were no seeds in the hip. It started to blacken prematurely and there was nothing inside that even approached looking like seeds. I was a little disappointed because I got my hopes up. I just posted a couple of photos, for what it's worth.
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Thank you.
And Mme de Watteville has three offspring listed, as seed parent. Hmmm.
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#14 of 14 posted
2 days ago by
HubertG
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Maybe only two offspring as a seed parent if the 1911 'The Garden' reference to 'Else Schüle' being a sport of 'Mme. de Watteville' is correct. I wouldn't doubt that under ideal conditions "Kombacy Marianne" might set a few hips with a few seeds. I think the relative lack of offspring of 'Mme. de Watteville' supports that theory that "Kombacy Marianne" is that rose.
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The author of the 1887 article in Journal des Roses states clearly that 'Princesse de Sagan' was a seedling of 'David d'Angers':
" La rose thé Princesse de Sagan a été obtenue en 1883, d'un semis du thé David d'Angers, par M. F.Dubreuil".
I assume what they call "David d'Angers" must be the 1856 Robert tea rose 'Souvenir de David d'Angers'. At least I can't find any original references to a "David d'Angers" rose.
I thought it might be worthwhile adding this more specific parentage to the description page.
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I have added that parentage, but I do have a little concern over why Brent Dickerson, who also quoted that reference, said in the Advisor “affiliated with” .....‘Souvenir de David d’Angers’.
Then that reference mentions the breeder M. Dubreuil.
Souvenir de David d'Angers' was bred by Robert in 1856
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#2 of 2 posted
5 days ago by
odinthor
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The "why" is just . . . my oversight. Yes, it is a seedling from 'Souvenir de David d'Angers'.
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Alister Clark exhibited a rose named 'Lady Rhodes' at the National Rose Society of Victoria's spring show in 1926 seven years before it was introduced into commerce in 1933. Lady Rhodes herself died in 1929. The rose exhibited in 1926 was described in The Australasian simply as "pink". The rose introduced in 1933 suggests a red to reddish pink. Although they are probably the same rose, the odd posthumous introduction makes me wonder if perhaps another rose other than the 1926 one was introduced as 'Lady Rhodes' in 1933.
Edited to add that a little further researching in the New Zealand newspapers database reveals that Clark introduced 'Lady Rhodes' in New Zealand before he did in Australia. His sister, Lady Rhodes, died in October 1929 and Alister Clark was in New Zealand in the first part of 1929 bringing with him material of the rose he named after her.
From the 'Thames Star' (NZ newspaper) of 14th March 1929, page 4:
"Over 50 buds of the seedling rose “Lady Rhodes,” raised by Mr. Alister Clark at Glenara Bulla . Victoria, and presented by him to the Canterbury Horticultural Society, have been brought to New Zealand by the donor. The rose is red in colour,' fairly full, lasts well on the plant, and in water, stands the sun well, and is deliciously sweet scented. The buds have been worked on specially prepared stocks by Mr. J. Poulsen, who anticipates having sufficient plants to meet all demands during the planting season of 1931. Blooms of “Lady Rhodes” will be exhibited at some of the society’s meetings next summer."
The fact that he provided so much grafting material to Poulsen in New Zealand suggests to me that it could have been a reason why the rose was delayed being introduced in Australia.
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Guildford Nurseries, Ethel Street, Guildford, was owned by Charles Rhodes. (see 1939 advertisement photo uploaded today in “Red Ethel”. )
It is feasible that they may have stocked Alister Clark’s ‘Lady Rhodes’ <1933 rose. Does anybody have access to any of Guildford Nurseries catalogues?
‘Lady Rhodes’ was said to be of moderate height, short stems, and a lasting bloom.
However, the colour was said to be “between red and pink” and “scarlet, passing to crimson carmine” with 60 petals.
How many petals does “Red Ethel" have?
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#1 of 6 posted
9 days ago by
HubertG
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A quick look at Trove says that he was also Mayor of Guildford and was involved in judging rose exhibitions. One article mentions that 'Billy Boiler' grew at the nursery so it's very likely that he sold other Clark roses. I'm wondering if he might have been family to Mrs. Clark.
From the Perth 'Mirror' 7 June 1930 page 5:
"Roses there are by the hundred from the old time Gloir de Dijon and Marechal Ney [sic] to the new and perhaps more fashionable varieties. There is a grand new scarlet rose, Billy Boiler, which flowers all the year round. But space forbids telling of all the horticultural wonders."
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Thanks HubertG.
Alister Clark was born in 1864, so any contemporary may have been Charles Rhodes Sr.
Charles Cecil Rhodes born c1898. was the nursery owner.
His mother's name was Frances Rhodes and it was his father, also Charles Rhodes who was the Mayor. The family's address was 7 Olive Street, Guildford.
From the website Guildfordanzacs:
Rhodes became a noted horticulturalist in WA . He later developed extensive commercial rose gardens in Ethel Street and and another nursery in Market Street, Guildford. Rhodes wrote articles for the West Australian and was noted rosarian. C.C. Rhodes' father was a noted civic figure and was a Mayor of Guildford.
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You can visit the property 'Otahuna' owned by Alister Clark's brother-in-law in the south island of NZ (where I stranded a hire car on a rock - Patricia would remember the Heritage Rose roadtrip in the region).
(Edited to remove an error.)
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With great clarity Margaret. I recall swearing OUT ALOUD when you hit the rock and I was sitting in the back with Milton Nurse.
I think I have found a births/deaths/ marriages connection to Arthur Rhodes who was Alister Clark's brother-in-law. (brother to Edith Clark (nee Rhodes) and the lawyer for the Clark family.
However, it is my first time at this stuff and I am getting bamboozled a bit. Take the following with some salt for the moment.
Arthur RHODES married
Annie Elizabeth JOY
Their child was
Annie Elizabeth RHODES (c1868-1936) aged 68 who died in Middle Swan, W.A.
Charles Rhodes [Sr,] (c1898-1948) married
Frances ….. (....-1953).
Their child was:
Charles Cecil Rhodes [Jr.] (c1898-1987) aged 89. Died at Boya, W.A.
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Looking at 'The Women behind the Roses', by the Govanstones (Rosenberg 2010).
Arthur Heaton Rhodes and Sophia Circuit Rhodes of 'Elmwood', Christchurch, NZ had 6 children.
Edith Rhodes married Alister Clark in 1888.
Heaton Rhodes married Alister's sister Jessie Clark.
The contemporary baritone Teddy Tahu Rhodes may come from a different line, as his ancestors added the name Tahu (a Maori word meaning 'to set on fire') to theirs soon after arrival in NZ (early 1840s). But someone more competent in tracing families is welcome to correct me.
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#6 of 6 posted
8 days ago by
HubertG
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Regarding any possible connection between Mrs Clark and Charles Rhodes - both trees seem to have been fairly well researched and are online and although both their Rhodes lines ultimately go back to Yorkshire, I can't see any connection between the two families going back to the early 18th century at least.
Charles Rhodes (1874 -1948) was a Fellow of the Royal Horticultural Society according to the newspapers, so considering that and his surname it's still possible that Alister Clark knew of him, and it would be nice to think that he sent roses over to him. Upon being appointed Mayor of Guildford in 1921 Charles Rhodes tendered his resignation as inspector for the Agricultural Department of the Swan district. Both he and his son Charles Cecil Rhodes are listed as "Nurseryman"at the same address in the 1931 Swan Electoral roll.
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