HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1900, page 51:
"Einige schöne Rosen für das freie Land.
... 5) Marquise de Vivens, Th. (Dubreuil 86). Mein ganz specieller Liebling. Die Blüte geht zum Grunde hin vom leuchtendsten Rosa in weiss-rosa und schiesslich in gelb über. Sie ist sehr reichblühend und die Menge der etwas hangenden Blüten macht namentlich auf einem hohen Mittelstamm, einem überraschend reizenden Eindruck. Dabei wird der etwas an Veilchen erinnernde Duft an Feinheit wohl kaum vom Dufte einer andern Rose übertroffen. Sie ist nicht sehr frostempfindlich."
My translation:
Some Beautiful Roses for Open Ground.
... 5) Marquise de Vivens. Tea. (Dubreuil 86). My rather special favourite. The flower graduates from the brightest pink to white-pink and finally to yellow at the base. It is very free-flowering and the mass of somewhat nodding blooms makes a surprisingly charming impression especially on a tall standard. And the fragrance, somewhat reminiscent of violets, is hardly surpassed in refinement by any other rose. It is not very frost-sensitive.
[I think this is the only other reference to the violet scent apart from the Sangerhausen description.]
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Well, I have violets galore ....[nonsense deleted]
Reference added. Thanks HubertG.
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#2 of 13 posted
30 JUN 18 by
 HubertG
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That's good to know that it can do well in dappled shade. I was thinking of trying this in a large decorative terracotta pot but in a position that wasn't the sunniest, so that information is useful. Thanks.
I have violets like weeds too.
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I do have 'Marquise de Vivens' (came as "Mrs Good's Special Tea") but my two own-root plants do not do well for me. (One in heavy dappled shade and a younger one in full sun.
[more nonsense deleted] .... Sorry to mess you around HubertG. Perhaps the time is getting closer for me to retire.
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#4 of 13 posted
30 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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No matter, Patricia. I've decided I want to give "Mrs. Goode's Special Tea" a go anyway, if Thomas' have it in stock, even just for the fragrance alone.
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If not, I can send cuttings at a suitable time of the year. It doesn't like my garden either, but it's very floriferous.
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#8 of 13 posted
1 JUL 18 by
HubertG
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Thank you very much Margaret. I'll certainly let you know if I can't obtain it.
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Bonjour,
Je suis journaliste à Feurs (Loire - France), ville où la marquise de Vivens avait son château.
Je suis à la recherche pour une publication future de photographies récentes de la rose "Marquise de Vivens".
Je suis aussi à la recherche de bouture (sans les feuilles) pour pouvoir la réimplanter en France, chez elle à Feurs.
Merci pour l'aide que vous pouvez m'apporter.
Sincères salutations.
François Perrot
Good morning,
I am a journalist in Feurs (Loire - France), city where the Marquise de Vivens had her castle.
I am looking for a future publication of recent photographs of the rose "Marquise de Vivens".
I am also looking for cuttings (without leaves) to be able to relocate it in France, at her home in Feurs.
Thank you for your help.
Best regards.
François Perrot
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If you send me a private message with your email address, I will send you some photos.
It was listed in the 2020 catalogue of La Roseraie du Desert, which has changed hands and is much smaller. I hope someone who bought it from them can help you with plant material, as sending cuttings or budwood from Australia is very complicated and expensive.
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Merci pour votre réponse.
Je viens de vous envoyer un message privé.
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I think it would be easier to contact the present owners of Roseraie du Desert, to ask whether they still have the rose.
Later: PierreLaPierre kindly contacted them, and they replied that they don't have it. Perhaps you could try to contact John Hook, the original owner.
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Patricia, your knowledge and dedication to HMF are invaluable - don't you dare retire!
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Thanks Andrew. That is nice of you. But the days dwindle down...as do my supply of marbles I think.
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You have millions of marbles Patricia. Marbles to spare.
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We have had warm weather up into the eighties; the petals baked. It is in mostly sun. Does it need moire water? Less heat?
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Golden Celebration needs LOOSE & LOAMY & alkaline soil for FASTEST water-uptake. If you put a straw into clay, versus a straw into a glass of water with loose pebbles, it would be easier to draw up water from pebbles/water, than from dense clay.
There's a guy in San Francisco who proved that plants wilt easily in the heat with dense clay, but when he made his clay loamy by mixing in 50% wood-chips, they no longer wilt, despite full sun & hot temp.
My Golden Celebration was in full-sun, loamy & fluffy ALKALINE composted horse manure .. leaves never wilt. Then I moved it to heavy & dense clay, 4 hours morning sun only, tons of rain-water from the gutter .. and it wilted in the sun. Why? The clay is too dense, so water can't be drawn up. Plus I put too much gypsum which drove potassium down. Potassium is needed for retention of water & water-osmosis. The solution to Golden Celebration: make the soil loamy for best water-uptake & supply potassium.
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That's a great explanation, thanks Straw!
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Adding humus to heavy soils also opens them up and creates suitable conditions for the natural mycorrhizal fungi to flourish. Everyones a winner.
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Agree to that !! Horse manure is best when it's at least 2 year-old and become humus & dark brown and moist. But the best humus is from decayed leaves, very fluffy, much easier for roots to go through than aged horse manure. Leaves in my zone 5a take at least 2 years to decompose to neutral pH.
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Golden Celebration as own-root likes it alkaline & much more vigorous and healthy if the soil is moist & alkaline and loamy. Now is 92 F hot & dry, and blooms don't scorch in full-sun, since I watered with my pH 9 tap-water, and the blooms have a better scent than with acidic rain. Comte de Chambord next to it have crispy-fried blooms in the heat. Golden Cel's blooms did fry when it was 1st-year own root, but mine is 7th year own-root, so root is deep.
I give it high potassium & high phosphorus, NPK 8-20-40, plus gypsum in the planting hole for its zillion petals. Blooms smell like cup-cakes fresh from the oven (if pH is alkaline), but lesser-quality or gone with acidic rain water. I had seen pictures of Golden Celebration with tons of blooms in a pot, so this rose can bloom well with alkaline-tap-water. I like it so much, I wish I had bought more.
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Im looking to try a little cross breeding project does anyone here know weather or not this is fertile in pollen or makes hips? and if not which DA are not sterile
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'Golden Celebration' makes round green hips which are the size of small crab apples.
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Certified Roses website shows St. Tropez as a floribunda, not hybrid tea. See,http://certifiedrose.com/images/sttropez.pdf
Quote:
Fact Sheet
New from Certified Roses for 2018
St. Tropez
(cv. ORAsyda, Rose Alleyson) PPAF
Fragrant Apricot Orange Floribunda
Class: Floribunda
Plant Habit: Medium height, 3 to 4 feet
Growth Habit: Upright to rounded, bushy
Stem Length: Medium
Foliage Color: Medium green & glossy
Disease
Resistance: Very good
Flower Color: Lasting apricot orange
Bud Form: Turbinate
Flower Form: Fully double, ruffled
Flower Size: Large, 5-inch diameter
Petal Count: 30 to 35
Fragrance: Strong licorice candy
Parentage: Easy Going x Top Notch
Hybridizer: Rosaraies Orard
Introducer: Certified Roses
Selling Points:
• What a color! The scrumptiously luscious almost-edible apricot-orange blossoms
redolent with the perfume of sweet anise can easily conjure up dreams of a cool
tropical cocktail and warm sandy beaches.
• Loads of full ruffled flowers adorn this beautiful bushy plant. Its attractive rounded
habit is clothed with an abundance of glossy green clean leaves, perfect for the
poolside, patio or landscape.
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Thank you Kathy, Do you think it is a floribunda, or a hybrid tea?
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The photos all seem to show the single blooms of a hybrid tea, and not the clustering of a floribunda.
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Its three grandparents are all floribundas.
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As were its parents. I'll add Floribunda. Justin, are you watching/listening.
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But. it does look very much like a hybrid-tea
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Well, I just got it as a bareroot, so I haven't seen it bloom yet, but Certified, the introducer, puts a label on each plant that says florrie.
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A wandering bee, perhaps?
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Oh dear. I thought you knew the rose well. Just because someone else says it was "something'" doesn't mean we have to accept it when we can see it might be "something else". HelpMeFind is all about guiding gardeners towards the truth. The breeder themselves list it as "Grandes fleurs". Isn't that a hybrid tea?
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I disagree. The purpose of listing it as a hybrid tea or florrie should be consistent across the databases, and having one database, such as HMF, exercise its "independent judgment" should be avoided. If the seller says it's a florrie, then it is. Period. And any listing here as a hybrid tea would just plain be in error, no matter what HMF's independent judgment is.
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I have to say I disagree with the above statement. The rose should be described in its profile as what it ACTUALLY is and not whatever tradesmen decide they would like to market it as. This is exactly why so many varieties get muddled and lost. This is exactly why HMF is so important, precisely because its judgement is independent.
There are two forth generation roses that are hybrid-teas but all other descendants are floribundas. The breeder's description of "Grandes fleurs", doesn't this translate to grandiflora? Just to throw a spanner in the works. Even so I would still expect it to still have cluster flowers as well as single stems. It would be very interesting to see what other members are growing as 'St Tropez'.
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One of the problems that occurs when HMF reassigns a rose's classification to something more of HMF's liking is that for American rose shows, you must correctly exhibit a rose in its properly assigned class. This rose would be disqualified if exhibited in the "hybrid tea" class (which class is combined with grandifloras, but not floribundas over here). And since there is essentially a continuum of rose characteristics, with many roses "correct" class being quite debatable -- many, if not most, roses show some characteristics of one class and other characteristics in another -- the default position, in my opinion, has to be the one which the entity selling the rose has chosen. If HMF must reassign roses to some other class than the seller has assigned to it, at the very least there should be a notification that it has done so on the homepage for that rose.
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I can understand it must be very frustrating. If as Patricia states "The breeder themselves list it as "Grandes fleurs"", this must indicate what type the rose is. I am ashamed to say that my French beyond what I can do on translating websites is very little. What is the French for Floribunda, Grandiflora and Hybrid-Tea? If the rose is classed as a Grandiflora then, under your system, it must be classed with the Hybrid-Teas. Even though it is very clear from its linage that it is definitely a Floribunda. And its growth is very like a Hybrid-Tea.
I am way over my depth here!
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#15 of 24 posted
17 FEB 18 by
Marlorena
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Mons. Orard also calls it a Hybrid Tea. This is from his website..
Souvent appelés Hybrides de Thé, ces rosiers sont le plus souvent uniflores (une fleur par tige)et poussent à environ 1.00 m de hauteur.
Often called Tea Hybrids, these roses are most often uniflorus (one flower per stem)
and grow to about 1.00 m in height.
Grande Fleurs = Hybrid Tea...
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Orard describes this rose as a hybrid tea:
Rosier ROSE ALLEYSON ®
Ora 295-08 (ORARD)
Type technique : Grandes fleurs
Les rosiers à grandes fleurs:
Souvent appelés Hybrides de Thé, ces rosiers sont le plus souvent uniflores (une fleur par tige)et poussent à environ 1.00 m de hauteur. Les fleurs bien turbinées possèdent généralement entre 30 et 60 pétales. Les variétés proposées sont toutes remontantes. Plantations tous les 45/50 cm, pour massifs et fleurs coupées de jardin.
The habit and breeder description appear to contrast with Certified's label. Mind you, "le plus souvent..." notwithstanding, in Photo Id: 310687 one *can* see a few sprays of flowers.
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I just made an inquiry to the grower. We'll get to the bottom of this.
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Hello Robert,
Did you ever get a response from the grower as to how this rose should be classified?
Regards, Andrew.
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I'm going to chime in here. I agree with Kathy.
All references have traditionally adhered to the official classification made by the breeder and the recording body.
In my opinion HMF and it's users would be best served by following suit.
Any opinions expressed by growers can be shared in the comments section.
Classification of roses is a messy business and one that no doubt will continue to evolve over time.
Best wishes, Robert
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The breeder, Orard, says it is a Hybrid Tea (Type technique : Grandes fleurs), as shown above. It is the grower, Certified -- presumably the sole distributor stateside, who has employed the floribunda label. So I'm not sure where that leaves a rose exhibitor.
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#20 of 24 posted
27 MAR 19 by
Marlorena
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I said that a year ago... see reply #15 above... surely it's down to the breeder how a rose is designated..
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Plant architecture and bloom size are similar to its grandparent, Remember Me, which would be considered a grandiflora had it been bred in America. But it was not. It has broader petals and far few prickles than Remember Me, which is nice.
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Would the matter be resolved with a description to the effect of "floribunda habit -- Marketed as a hybrid tea"?
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I dunno. It is confusing because the categorical systems are not congruent, and what matters is that the purchaser understands what they are purchasing. In a very minor way, it matters for exhibition, but exhibitors make up a minority of rosarians, and they tend to use their purchasing power for the same set of roses. A classic example would be a purchase order for 20 plants of 'Gemini'.
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Thanks. I just broke down and bought the thing as a big box bare root, and if the thing survives the hacked, stacked, and sacked procedure, I might eventually be able to provide commentary beyond this "is it or ain't it a florrie" thread.
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It's interesting that some of the pictures of this rose show yellow shades and others, especially dee choi's photograph have pink tones instead. The plant I purchased from David Austin is pale lemon in bud during the summer opening white but in cooler autumn weather has a lovely soft yellow colour in the centres of the flowers. Definitely no pink anywhere, maybe warmer climates make a difference.
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#1 of 3 posted
12 MAY 21 by
newtie
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The rose sold to me as Prosperity has a pink tint to opening blossoms that then turn white. There is another Pemberton rose,Pax, now virtually lost from commerce in the United States, that has a light lemon tint to its beautiful buds. They open to a warm ivory white. It is a sprawler that sends out long canes, so I assume it could be grown as a climber. Its leaves are more elongated than Prosperity's and take on a grayish green tint as they mature. I am growing both Pemberton roses and both are outstanding in humid southeast Mississippi, 60 miles North of the Gulf of Mexico. To me, there is something very sophisticated about Pax. The buds are relatively small with a very classic high centered shape that remind me of Ophelia but a bit smaller. The foliage is also interesting. It's a shame this very fine rose is being lost from commerce.
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Have you considered whether ARE might be willing to reintroduce Pax? It sounds like a winner for the American south.
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#3 of 3 posted
15 JAN by
newtie
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I would encourage ARE to do that. I'll suggest it to them. It is too nice a garden rose not to be offered. My clone was custom rooted for me by Greenmantle Nursery in Ettersburg California. Another reason it should not be lost is because it can't be easily substituted for by other roses. It is a very sophisticated garden rose, not flashy, has understated beauty and quite healthy. Was named Pax to commemorate the end of WWI.
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