HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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ThomasR 
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Hi Jay-Jay, I am intrigued by your picture. Other members' pictures show the same shape of receptacle, except for Zambra's and the Roseraie de l'Hay's file (sorry I can't paste the link). I am a beginner and I would like to know if you happen to notice clear variations in the shapes of receptacles of your roses ?
Best regards, Thomas.
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#1 of 2 posted
8 APR 21 by
Jay-Jay
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It's a young flower-bud. The earlier picture shows almost no receptacle. So they vary in time, but if they vary of shape at the same age... I do not know.
My aim with this photo, was to show new growth and the color of that... and the form of the sepals.
Maybe this question of You is to be answered by Your own research, or by other HMF-members.
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#2 of 2 posted
8 APR 21 by
ThomasR
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Thank you Jay-Jay for your answer, I will try to keep an eye on my roses ; but once I read a comment by a rose specialist whose name I forgot stating that you could recognize a rose by looking at its back/bottom, since then I am careful about receptacles when trying to identify a rose. Best regards, Thomas.
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Hello Patricia, I do not grow Duc de Cazes 1860 but the Helpmefind pictures of it are reminding me of your rose, although the references are describing it as deep crimson/purple.
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Thank you ThomasR. I do appreciate your interest in this Australian foundling.
I suspect it is not ‘Duc de Cazes’ because the early references mention black in the colour, so I think it was too dark to be a candidate.
The references also say the bloom was dome-shaped, and I have noted that “Jack Sampson’s No. 1” is flat.
The bush at San Jose seems to have taco-shaped leaves (sides inclining up) whereas my plant has flat leaves. So, perhaps not. I have wondered about ‘Rose du Rescht’ but that is all I have done so far - just wondered.
I rather like having a Jack Sampson rose. Jack received a Heritage Roses in Australia award in 1995 for planting old roses in different cemeteries - I would have liked such a man.
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#2 of 2 posted
14 DEC 20 by
ThomasR
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You are welcome Patricia. I missed that aspect of the leaves ! My recent experience in growing old roses had me question my color spectrum, especially the pink to red transition with roses such as Philippe Bardet and Rouge Marbrée, both grafted, I wonder if this is due to establishment or soil... I didn't know about Jack Sampson, he had a great and generous idea ! I am often wondering about landscape and roses, and pictures such as the Sacramento Cemetery's are such an inspiration.
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Hello, last year I was trying to identify two rose bushes growing both sides of an old farm's window. I presumed both bushes were the same, but on my last visit I noticed one bush produced very round hips while the other had not so perfectly round hips. Is such a variation a proof that both roses are not the same ? The bushes, or at least one of them, could be Crimson Glory ; after some days in a vase, the flowers start developing a very bad, putrid scent (also noticed on another old red rose).
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#1 of 3 posted
12 DEC 20 by
HubertG
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Subtle variation like that in the shape of those hips probably isn't enough to discern the two roses are different especially if they seem identical in other respects.
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#2 of 3 posted
12 DEC 20 by
ThomasR
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Thank you HuberG, your answer is helpful ! In the future I will try to have a more careful look at these roses, but they did seem to be the same to my untrained eyes. Best regards, Thomas.
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#3 of 3 posted
12 DEC 20 by
HubertG
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You're welcome! And it also makes sense that they might have planted the same fragrant rose on either side of the window to allow the scent in the house.
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This rose is really very European looking to me, just like an old Tea Rose. Does anyone know its provenance, beyond being collected by Dr. Ueda?. Is it really from China? Even though ThomasR's rose is blush-coloured, the earliest photo here from John Hook is very reminiscent of 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' in form and colour.
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#1 of 18 posted
5 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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Hello HubertG, I was just trying to figure out if the rose I am growing was Chun Shui Lu Bo. The pictures I posted showed the first flower of an own-root rose, so it may be early for conclusions... That said, I was looking at the Blush Maman Cochet pictures and references, and I can't help thinking it might be my rose. The 1918 reference depicts waxy petals, which is quite what I felt. A lot of them. Also, the inner sepals were very ornamental when they opened, velvety tender green. Very distinctly red new growth. The scent reminded me of Honey/ Heliotrope, not overpowering. What do you think ?
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#2 of 18 posted
5 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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I had two logographic descriptions of Chun Shui Lu Bo automatically translated, and both said (in French) "getting red when half-open", maybe referring to blushing ? I do not grow Mrs Herbert Stevens, but I'll post pictures as soon as the buds open. Also, there is a location mentioned in the description page.
Best regards, Thomas.
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#3 of 18 posted
5 JUL 20 by
HubertG
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Hi ThomasR,
If it's a very young plant then it might not produce typical flowers yet so, like you say, perhaps too soon to be conclusive. However, my first impression is that it isn't 'William R. Smith'/'Blush Maman Cochet'. I have a very young cutting-grown plant of that with a bud on it, so I'll post a photo of that tomorrow to compare. I wouldn't say that 'W. R. Smith' smells like honey and heliotrope. It has a scent similar to 'Maman Cochet' to my nose, only weaker. Not very strongly scented at all.
When you say that you are trying to identify this rose, did it come mislabelled from a nursery or was it saved from someone's garden?
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#4 of 18 posted
5 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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Thank you HubertG, I'll look at your pictures. I wouldn't qualify my rose's scent as strong either. I ordered it from Mr and Mrs Hook's roseraie, I think there are only two nurseries in France selling own-root roses. Actually I was trying to identify what it could be in the case it wouldn't be Chun Shui Lu Bo, out of curiosity. The first flower seemed different than the few existing pictures but I couldn't be sure. Recently I've been wondering if a young plant was just a lighter version (less color, less scent, less petals...) of itself. I'm thinking of how one can look like one parent at a young age, and then another one. I should search for articles or topics about that.
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A few comments: many Tea roses vary in colour (and petal number) with the season.
If Dr Ueda says he collected it in China, I see no reason not to accept that. Presumably la Roseraie du Desert has some reason for saying that what they sell is the rose he collected
Tipsy Imperial Concubine (for example) is a rose collected in China which some people think looks like it has some HP in its breeding. Roses travelled from China and Japan to Europe: why wouldn't the exchange, and breeding experiments, have been two-way?
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#6 of 18 posted
6 JUL 20 by
HubertG
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I wasn't implying that the rose in question isn't the rose collected in China by Dr. Ueda or that Roseraie du Desert wasn't selling Dr. Ueda's rose. I was just wondering if it might have been an old European Tea Rose brought to China at some time in the 19th century and having lost it's original name there at some point long ago was renamed with a Chinese name (whether correct or not).
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Sorry, that didn't come across from your first posting.
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#8 of 18 posted
6 JUL 20 by
HubertG
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No worries. I should have asked is it really a Chinese rose rather than "is it really from China?". Also, to clarify, I don't think it's 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' either, just that it reminded me very much of that rose, which led me to think it might have been a European rose in the first place.
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#13 of 18 posted
20 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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I have gathered some pictures of the the last buds of this rose plus the opening of the second flower since I planted it, prickles (only here and there on this rose, but large and remaining pink) and leaves (staying red/purple for quite a long time, then getting slightly glossy as they turn green ; thinly red-bordered). Concerning the flower, it doesn't look far from the first one in Spring, only larger. Some pearl color, mauve blush, pink marks and a crepe texture on the outer petals. Still a light honey scent to me. Less green shades. I am not sure the bud could be qualified as long. Also the last bud is showing more simple sepals.
Do you see a resemblance between my rose and your Blush Maman Cochet ?
Best regards, Thomas.
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#14 of 18 posted
21 JUL 20 by
HubertG
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There is certainly a similarity but that doesn't mean it is the same of course. I've noticed that W. R. Smith/Blush Maman Cochet most usually has a reddish-brown colour cast to the flower stems as the flower opens. Yours seem to be just green. W.R. Smith often balls in wet weather and I've never seen it set a hip. Maybe leave one of your flowers to see if it sets a hip. If it does, it probably isn't W. R. Smith/Blush Maman Cochet.
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#15 of 18 posted
21 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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Thank you HubertG ! I will keep an eye on the rose but I am happy about it anyway. Interesting your last comment about Blush Maman Cochet !
Best regards, Thomas.
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The receptacle (at the base of the bud) of Maman Cochet has been described as a saucepan on a stick. The sides of the receptacle of your rose taper much more smoothly - not square.
Best just to use the name it came with. It's a lovely rose.
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#17 of 18 posted
21 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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Thank you Margaret for checking the pictures ; I see what you mean about the receptacles of W.R. Smith, on the pictures I see variations of a more rounded shape than my rose. I do appreciate the fact that the plant and its blooms look good and strong during these hot days.
Best regards, Thomas.
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#18 of 18 posted
12 DEC 20 by
ThomasR
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I didn't notice any hips this season ; fall rebloom but all the buds were cut off by the wind. Next Spring I will contact Mrs Hook and ask for her opinion.
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#9 of 18 posted
6 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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Thank you Margaret, I will still try to find information about the early stages of roses, grown from cuttings or grafted ; sometimes I notice things that intrigues me.
Neither was I questioning Mr and Mrs Hook's reliability. Mrs Hook has always been very patient and informative, I am aware that being able to purchase some of their findings is a luck ; I contacted Mrs Hook last month about the rose. The conclusion was the same : it is still young, and the slightly darker center I described was the only significative difference (I do not think I mentioned the petals count) ; I have to check for long buds.
I also have a question for both of you : who is Dr Ueda ?
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#10 of 18 posted
6 JUL 20 by
jedmar
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See Ueda, Yoshihiro under Authors
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#12 of 18 posted
6 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
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#11 of 18 posted
6 JUL 20 by
jedmar
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Yes, this is quite possible. A number of European roses were acclimatised in China in the 19th century and I believe received Chinese names. If you look at the publication "Volatile Components in Chinese Roses", you will see a number of Chines roses which have components like Geraniol, Citronellol, Nerol in their fragrance, which is typical of Gallicas and their descendants, but not of Chinas and Teas. For example 'Cos Se Tian Xang', 'Fen Zhang Lou', 'Pu Tao Hong', 'Zi Yan Fei Wu'
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