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Dear Helpmefind users, I would like to identify a rose that I've always seen in my late great-grandmother garden. It's still there, although it doesn't receive any care today. I'm going to describe it and then I'll try to post the pictures I took of it, last October I think. -There is a lot of it planted in the same square, so I would call it a shrub but it is not very dense, nor large. -It doesn't get higher than approximately 1m50 when uncut, but today a huge fir tree has grown over it. -The flowers are wavy, of an eye-catching pink, semi-double. I remember them in clusters when it was taken care of, they have almost no scent. -New growth is rather purple, which makes the pink flowers even more eye-catching. -I made some cuttings in September in order to propagate it and every one of them survived. -I've seen it with flowers at the end of December, which is winter in the South of France. -I would say it is in this garden for more than 50 years, but I am not sure of that, but more than 30 years for sure. -I have searched for similar roses with the advanced search feature. I've seen some flowers that look like it, but often the leaves look different. Here are the names I've found : Playgirl, Sangerhausen, Dortmund, Eva, Permanent Wave, Rödhätte, Tiergartendirektor Timm.
I think some of you must know what rose it is. I haven't been a member for long but I really appreciate all the pictures, comments and documentation that the Helpmefind community is offering. Thank you in advance, Thomas.
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There is a hidden message for members in your Comment Thomas. The message is: ring your great / grandmother / mother and talk to her NOW about the roses she grows. She might not survive the virus, but her roses will. If she doesn’t recall the names, in what decade did she plant them, and where did she buy them from? One may later search an old catalogue if she knows that last query.
My first thought was perhaps Rubaiyat 1946. However, that was too tall, the whitish centre is not there, and it does have an excellent perfume. Permanent Wave was more likely to have been planted in a group, but I feel your rose has too many petals. Sorry I can’t help more than that.
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#2 of 11 posted
21 MAR 20 by
ThomasR
Thank you Patricia for answering so quickly ! I've been looking at the Rubaiyat rose page, the first picutre was so remiding me of the location of the rose ! But the Rubaiyat blooms look much fuller ! There is a picture of Ensalada from Vibert that looks like it, but it is a 2001 rose. My dear great-grandmother, who strongly contributed to my interest in gardens, passed away more than twenty years ago. My mother owns the house today but the garden is "à l'abandon". I went there and took several cuttings this year so I will probably try to identify them with the help of the Helpmefind community ! I think the only clues are in my memories. First, the house and the garden were built in the late 1950s, and a great attention was given to the lanscape.Everything was meticulously chosen, located and taken care of.I have seen documents were the choice of trees were discussed with the lanscaper but they didn't mention the roses. I think my mamie must have selected them herself, and she must have used some cuttings.There were some famous efficient roses like Centenaire De Lourdes, there is also an own-root Superstar/Tropicana that comes from her at my parents' house.But I think this rose is older and I heard that the cuttings were given to her by one of her cousins, and I remember it had a special status. I am surprised that I didn't see it appear in the books I read or in the tremendous Helpmefind list of roses ; apart from the fragrance which I still have to check with my cuttings, it has some qualities, like surviving under a fir tree, having a good lanscaping presence. There is also something "artistic" about the flower, I think, it is reminding me of Georgia O'Keeffe. I am not an expert, but it being reliable, eye-catching, slightly-scented, I would have expected it to be a success of its time, like the aforementioned roses. Patricia I thank you so much for sharing your time and knowledge, I've been searching so much on Helpmefind since I dicovered it, and I have read a lot of your comments/looked at your pictures. Have a nice day, protect yourself, Thomas.
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#3 of 11 posted
30 JUN 20 by
ThomasR
I took new pictures of that rose last month. I am getting lost in my searches, but maybe I should investigate further about Tiergartendirekor Timm. Lafayette is also a name that frequently comes back. Here are some more informations : -12 to 15 petals. -purple new stems and leaves, leaves sometimes bordered with purple, especially on young cuttings. -hairy pedicels. -actually it can grow higher than 1.50m. -round hips, found on one similar shrub isolated from the bedding. -very neat, pointed buds. -small clusters. -the wave is subtle, much less tight than Permanent Wave. Thank you, Thomas.
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#4 of 11 posted
17 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
After doing some research I think this rose could be Cyclamen 1959. The Roseraie du Val De Marne website describes it as a tall bush (they do grow it). They have a picture of it where one can see the slightly red-bordered leaves, whose shine is also similar. 1959 makes the timing very short, as the house and garden, including the bed were these roses were planted, were built in the late 1950s. This makes me wonder if they are actually own-roots, but could a grafted rose have survived for so long ?
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The roses at Bishop's Lodge, NSW, Australia are thought to have survived many droughts since the 1920s and earlier, because they are on Indica major rootstock. Of course Indica major prefers to discard the scion and survive by itself, but certainly budded plants can survive a long time when the rootstock is compatible.
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#6 of 11 posted
18 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
Thank you Margaret for your explanation ! I just checked my pictures ; I am not able to determine that but there is at least one that looks a lot like a bud union isn't it ? Or could years of cutting create that kind of shape ? Also, in this area, there usually are some frosts each winter, and there has been some big ones since the 1950s.
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I'm not an expert, but the second photo shows a stem arising very low down. If that has the same flowers as the rest of the plant, I think it may be on its own roots. Bishop's Lodge is a long way inland, and gets frosts.
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Looks like cane borer damage
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#9 of 11 posted
18 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
Thank you Margaret, I didn't notice that detail ! I will check that when I get back to the location. I will also try to contact the Loubert nursery or conservatory as Cyclamen is part of their collection. The main point that puzzles me is that I only noticed 3+1(lower bud) clusters, same as on older roses, blooming more simultaneously perhaps. I didn't know about Bishop's Lodge but there seems to be a lot to see on the internet about this location. Robert Neil, do you mean cane borer could be the cause of the "swollen" wood on the third picture ? Thank you both, Thomas.
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Sorry, I just looked at the pics and didn't read the thread,
Yes, the damaged bark and scarring look due to borer infestation.
Most often it's caused by sunburn and or lack of proper irrigation.
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#11 of 11 posted
18 JUL 20 by
ThomasR
This makes sense as these roses are almost abandoned... Thanks !
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