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safrano.rose 
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From Global Times:
Chinese researchers have discovered Rosa lucidissima, a critically endangered species of Rosa chinensis, commonly known as China rose, in southwest China's Guizhou Province.
A joint expedition team from the Foding Mountain nature reserve administration and the College of Forestry of Guizhou University first discovered the species at a national-level reserve in Shiqian County.
"In a field survey in April, we located four plants of Rosa lucidissima at about 700 meters above sea level. The roses swirled up the trees, with eye-catching red flowers hanging from the branches," said Wu Xu, a team member from the College of Forestry of Guizhou University.
As an endemic Chinese species, Rosa lucidissima is sporadically distributed in southern and central China and its wild population is extremely rare. It is on China's red list of biodiversity as a critically endangered species.
Botanists believe that the national second-class protected wild plant species is the primitive form of China rose. Further study on it would offer an insight into the origin and evolution of the rose plants, which could provide an important reference for rose genetics breeding and ecological protection.
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Thank you for posting this John, hopefully there will be further work done. Lynne
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R.lucidissima is once blooming. Is it known how the later China roses developed the repeat blooming trait?
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Not that I am aware of. Obviously a chance mutation though. Repeat blooming roses were being extensively grown and bred during the Song period (960 - 1279 ad), in the city of Luoyang 41 different repeat flowering roses listed
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The 1904 Blush Rambler reference is interesting in that it says the foliage is very similar to its seed parent ‘Crimson Rambler’. For what it is worth, I’ll attach a photo of my 1893 ‘Crimson Rambler’ leaf (left) and a leaf of what I believe is c1895 Dawson’s ‘Apple Blossom‘ (right). I do not have ‘Blush Rambler’.
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I have some photos of the roses received as Blush Rambler and Cherub at Araluen.
If I put them here in comments for a start, can we have a conversation about what they might be and where they could be uploaded?
Re the leaves - I went back and forth between the two plants, thinking one had upturned leaflets or more conspicuous serrations or different shaped leaflets, but no - both plants had quite a wide range of variation in the leaflets.
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A few more photos of the two roses at Araluen
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Billy,
I was under the impression my ‘Crimson Rambler’ has light green leaves. I still think so, but a photograph or two this morning of the leaves tells me there is very little difference in the colour of ‘Crimson Rambler’ and the rose which came to me as ‘Cherub’ from Melville-> Del Bibby-> ROS-O-SW and which I was thinking might be Dawson’s ‘Apple Blossom’. I am sure we are talking about the same clone. Seamus (Mostly Roses) tells me his ‘Blush Rambler’ came from Ken Poultney.
There are a couple of references which say ‘Blush Rambler’ has “pyramidal clusters” and that, combined with the references to light green leaves leads to my doubt.
I have deleted my Comment of yesterday and for the sake of flow, have attached it below. I guess all you can do is read the references and comments.
As at Dec 18, 2022 Australian nurseries and major gardens are listing the following roses on HelpMeFind:
Apple Blossom - see 2006 ref.
Dawson 1890. Dawson x R. multiflora.
Thomas for Roses
Apple Blossom See Comment 20-440 initial post and Comment 23-066 reply 2 of 2.
Burbank 1932 Dawson x R. multiflora
Mistydowns, Ross, Vic State.
Blush Rambler. - has light green foliage similar to Crimson Rambler.
B.R. Cant 1903. Crimson Rambler x The Garland.
Araluen, Mistydowns, Mostly Roses, Old Parliament Hazlewood, Thomas for Roses, Vic State.
Cherub. - was salmon pink, ages to carmine pink. Probably extinct- see refs.
Alister Clark <1920. Seedling of Claire Jacquier.
Alister Clark Mem Gdns Bulla, Araluen, Mistydowns, Old Parliament tennis, Vic State.
Kew Rambler - has prickles.
Unknown breeder 1912. Rosa Soulieana x Hiawatha
Mistydowns, Saumarez, Thomas for Roses,
Or in another format:
Alister Clark Mem Gdns, Bulla: has Cherub.
Araluen: has Blush Rambler, Cherub.
Mistydowns: had Apple Blossom (Burbank), Blush Rambler, Cherub, Kew Rambler.
Mostly Roses: has Blush Rambler.
Old Parliament House: Hazlewood has Blush Rambler; Tennis Courts has Cherub.
Ross: has Apple Blossom (Burbank).
Thomas for Roses: had Apple Blossom (Dawson), Blush Rambler, Kew Rambler.
Vic State garden: has Apple Blossom (Burbank), Blush Rambler, Cherub.
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I am so inexperienced and inexpert where ramblers are concerned so it’s all new and interesting for me.
I am hoping that there are rambler experts in the hmf community who can give a few pointers.
Would like to know whether there are examples of ramblers that have a continuous link to their names as a reliable starting point for comparison.
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Attached is what Thomas for Roses had as Blush Rambler, followed by what was labelled Blush Rambler at the Dunedin North cemetery, then what was labelled Apple Blossom at the Gamble Garden, SA.
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The roses sold in Australia as Blush Rambler and Cherub appear to be the same and may be the same as the roses sold as Apple Blossom (Dawson) and Apple Blossom (Burbank). As the Victoria State Garden has three of these roses, would someone please be able to check whether they are the same? A comment on the amount of prickles on the plants would also be appreciated.
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#7 of 9 posted
22 DEC 22 by
HubertG
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I found a photo of 'Cherub', a young plant growing on a fence, in a 1932 newspaper. Detail isn't great but it may be useful.
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I have a 'Blush Rambler' purchased from Vintage Gardens in 2004. It is a very upright growing rose with canes thick enough to allow it to form a 8' vase shaped shrub. When Ann Belovich visited almost a decade ago, she was not certain if it was correctly identified. She asserts in her book on ramblers that "some roses by this name are actually Dawson's 'Apple Blossom. She further says that 'Blush Rambler' has "small, single, pink with white centers, fragrant and carried in large clusters." As for 'Apple Blossom', she says "single light pink flowers with white centers blooming in large clusters..."
My rose is not single and none of the photos on this page are single. I would think that any rose just one generation from 'Crimson Rambler' as 'Blush Rambler' is, would have a profusion of glandular bristles on the pedicles and peduncles just as 'Crimson Rambler' does, and that would be a good indication of the true rose.
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Thanks for your input Palustrus. Just yesterday I added those references.
Re: Apple Blossom
Ann has written Dawson’s AB is semi-double, and Burbank’s is single.
This seems to counter Dan Russo’s (NEroseman)’s comment in the ‘Apple Blossom’ Burbank 1932 page, initial comment and 3 of 5 that both Apple Blossoms were the same rose.
Re: Blush Rambler
I have five first generation descendants of ‘Crimson Rambler’ and have this morning photographed the pedicels and stipules. Most pedicels were glandular. However, the biggest surprise for me was my presumed ‘Excelsa’ with pedicels as smooth as a baby’s bottom. However, I know in the ‘Excelsa’ comments I have written “…..the tiny hairs, but on 'Excelsa' they are much fewer and they sparsely populate the pedicels”.
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I have uploaded four photos to the Barcelona entry and the thumbnail of the last one looks upside down, although it opens the right way - have I done something wrong here please?
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They all look the right way up to me safrano.rose. Thanks for sharing the photos.
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Alexander Hill Gray consistently has more petals (usually many more) than the '17-25' listed in the description. The numbers 17-25, used to define 'double', are misleading in this case and it would be better to just use 'double' or 'very double'.
This probably applies to other Tea roses so you may see this message again as I work through the alphabet!
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#1 of 6 posted
28 MAR 10 by
jedmar
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Most references use "double" from anything upwards of 20-25 petals. When there is factual information on the number of petals, we can correct the bloom description.
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We counted petals many times while writing the Tea Rose book and the consensus among the authors was that, in our conditions, this rose usually has from 60 to 80 petals. However, we note that petal count varies from place to place and season to season and I am sure flowers can be found with far fewer petals.
My problem with the inclusion of 17-25, or any number for that matter, is that this could be misleading for identification purposes - unless a note could be included to refer to the variability/wide range?
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#4 of 6 posted
29 MAR 10 by
jedmar
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The indication of the range of petals (e.g. 17-25 for double) is also a vehicle to standardize definitions. Take Prévost in 1829: He calls 6-9 petals semi-double, 10-14 petals double, 15-25 petals multiple, more than 25 petals très-multiple. The first we would consider today still single, the second as semi-double.
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Absolutely! So if you try to apply a definition written for another type of rose to a Tea rose it may not fit. Coming round full circle - rather than supply petal numbers from my conditions for a variable rose, which may confuse even further - is it possible to just delete the '17-25' from the description and leave it at 'double' or 'very double'?
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#6 of 6 posted
30 MAR 10 by
jedmar
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I understand your position on Tea roses, but considering the vast majority of other roses 17-25 petals is a good description of a double rose. And as I said, having the petal numbers in brackets enables a standardized classification whenever the information is available.
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#3 of 6 posted
29 MAR 10 by
Cass
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Actual petal counts are rarely included in references other than your book. If you provide the petal counts, HMF will post them and revise the bloom description accordingly. Thanks!
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